Reflecting to Thrive with Chie Sawa

On this episode of The Ikigai Podcast, I talk with Chie Sawa, founder of Thrive Life Design, about why all leaders need a sanctuary to pause and reconnect with themselves. 

We also explore reverse culture shock, the power of co-reflection, and how structured tools like Tarot readings for reflection can create clarity without crossing into therapy. 

We explore:

• Chie’s journey from Japan to the US and back 
• Reverse culture shock and feeling out of place at home 
• Why sociology and women’s rights shaped her path 
• Building Thrive Life Design beyond psychotherapy 
• What “thrive” means as steady life expansion 
• Sanctuary as a space to pause, breathe, and renew 
• Reflection vs naisei and why being heard matters 
• Reflection as a tool with clear limits 
• Rumination, resentment, and when therapy is the better path 
• The Reflection Room as a flexible one-on-one space 
• Soul Story Tarot as a reflective structure not fortune telling 
• Utori as the felt sense of inner room 
Book a session with Chia. 

Transcript

Life, Meaning, And A New Guest

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Life can be quite tough, you know, very complex. But also life gives us great opportunities and something fun, something exciting, and sometimes very challenging too. But regardless of what happens, at least we would be able to create something that's meaningful and then continue to move forward and continue to enjoy the life that we have.

Growing Up Curious About America

SPEAKER_02 1:01

My guest today is Chie Sawa, founder of Thrive Life Design, a non-clinical sanctuary for leaders in Japan to pause, reflect, and gain clarity. Chie has spent 20 plus years in deep, meaningful conversations, first as a psychotherapist, and always as a quiet observer of human connection and transformation. Over time, she has learned that not everyone needs fixing. Some people need a sanctuary. Thrive Life Design offers private sessions for English speaking leaders in Japan to pause, breathe, and return to themselves. I think I need that cheer. Welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Well, thank you so much for having me, Nick. It's so nice to be talking to you again.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Likewise.

The Jolt Of Reverse Culture Shock

SPEAKER_00 2:12

And I went through all public schools there. And since I was a little, I had a strong curiosity about American culture, and eventually led me to study English more seriously. In high school, I had a chance to spend about three weeks in New York State. And that made me want to stay there longer. So I ended up living in the US for a total of 11 years and a half across four different states, including Utah for two years, Michigan for two years, Indiana for two and a half, and Massachusetts for about five years. And I attended three different universities. I actually transferred after my sophomore year in college and eventually built my career as a psychotherapist. And I had such a great time living in the US. And that part of me still deeply, you know, impact me for even today.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Amazing. It does impact you, doesn't it, when you live in a different country? But for you to also become a licensed mental health counselor there and do all that study in a non-native language is very impressive. So uh that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Okay, so after returning to Japan in 2010, you experienced reverse culture shock and sometimes felt out of place, even in your own country of Japan. Would you like to talk about that?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Sure. When I lived in the US, I adjusted pretty well and I did not get any homesick. But coming back to Japan at the end of 2010 was a total different story. I experienced a lot of reverse culture shock and I almost felt out of place, even though I was born and grew up in Chiva. And I also felt homesick for my life in the US. And moving to Tokyo for the first time made that experience even more intense because everyday things like paperwork, banking, transportation, writing and reading in kanji, and formal Japanese took more energy than expected. Like how to exchange your business cards and how to dress, how to show up, um, you know, the differences between keigo, kenjo go, sonke, and all of that. You know what I'm talking about. So I asked myself this question. Did I actually grow up here? Did I actually finish all the school here in Japan? And I still feel this way. I guess this is me. And yeah, eventually I adapted to the changes and rediscovered the beauty of Japan and this culture, people, and connections I built. And I'm very deeply grateful about American culture and Japanese cultures, and also since I work with a lot of international people here in Japan, I get to experience and learn about different cultures, different people, histories, their customs. So I'm very grateful of living here and I love Japan this time. Like I would say, I love Japan. I'm so grateful to be here.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

I love Japan too. And that's obviously one of the reasons why I'm thinking of going back. But like you, I experienced reverse culture shock when I returned to Australia. I felt out of place. I noticed I was bowing a lot when I was meeting people or doing some form of business. So I had to break that habit. And it was a little unsettling because here everything was either laid back or also direct, like more direct. And I'd been in this environment in Japan where things were slower or softer, people weren't direct, and people were far more focused in Japan and coming back to Australia, yeah, even just going to supermarkets, it seemed like gee, people don't do their job with full intention here. I had forgotten. I also came back as a father. So that was interesting. My son was born in Japan. So maybe there was some pressure with with that too. But then you adjust, things get back to normal. So I appreciate both cultures too. And you learn so much from learning the language, experiencing the culture. It's like we have the best of both worlds.

From Sociology To Counseling Work

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Right, right, right. Each culture has wonderful points and not so good points, but you get to embrace all of that.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

You're right. I'm also thinking, wow, I will miss Australia. I'm aware of that too. And there is that challenge of moving, adjusting, and you've just reminded me, oh, that's right. Things are a lot more complicated in Japan.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

So I'll have to embrace that and and think, okay, this is part of moving back. So I think you need a very strong or positive mindset. And on that theme, you are a certified public psychologist, certified clinical psychologist, a licensed mental health counselor. What attracted you to psychology and counseling?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

If I'm being honest, psychology and counseling were not my original goals. What I really wanted at first was to become fluent in English and build a life and career in an international environment. So I majored sociology and women's studies in undergraduate because I was drawn to learning about how society shapes people's lives. And also I was interested in women's and children's rights. But over time, I became more interested in human behavior, especially social psychology, and the connection between inner experience and how the world around us, like how group impacts us and our psychology, and the impact of us individual psychology impacting a bigger system. So I was also interested in working with people directly. That is what gradually led me into counseling in grad school and eventually uh into the profession, uh professional path that I took.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Amazing. So it seemed like you achieved your goal of becoming fluent in English and building a life and career in an international environment.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

And then I guess you were ready to grow into this area of psychology and studying what you've just shared with us, women and children's rights. So that's an interesting area. Why did you want to study women and children's rights?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Good question.

Why Create Thrive Life Design

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Well, you know, in Japan, we often say, you know, girls cannot do this, or you know, girls are this and girls are that, boys are this and that. And luckily, the way I grew up, my parents never opposed anything. Or maybe they said something, or maybe I didn't listen to them, or I just picked and I became a selective listener. But they are very encouraging. And they the message that I got was I can do anything that I want in my life. And that's how I still believe that. But as I go on, as I continue with my past, I start learning about what other people are saying. My peers are saying, I cannot do this because I'm a girl, or girls or women cannot go up the ladder of career. Um, and that made me question or wonder why, you know, we are so capable and why not. So that's why I became interested in, and as I was going through a list of majors in the US, I learned that women's study was one of the major or some subjects that people are teaching. So I was like, okay, this is for me. And I also wanted to study sociology. So sociology and women's studies, really good combinations, at least to me. It was nice. I had a good time learning about those things.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Thank you for sharing that. And I agree. Women are rock stars. When I think of Ikigai, I like to refer to the work of Miko Kamiya and the impact she's had on Ikigai. She was a research pioneer. I like to call her the mother of Ikigai. She's greatly impacted my work and my life. Many of my best students are women, and I've I've interviewed them. So, yeah, definitely more than capable. The uh women have been really inspiring in my life. I grew up with a single mother, uh, so I can relate to what you're saying. Well, let's talk on your work. After over 20 years of clinical work, guided by a passion for psychology and the privilege of witnessing human transformation, and after co-founding and running a group private practice, you wanted to create something new beyond your typical psychotherapy practice. And this led you to founding Thrive Life Design, a business to help leaders. So please tell me about Thrive Life Design T.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yes. It came from a question I started asking myself after many years of doing this work. Like, what do I want to create next beyond psychotherapy? And I've taken my role as a therapist very seriously. And I I also started like coaches, like therapists, or any other professionals. I work very hard to stay up to date, keep learning, keep reflecting, sharpen my skills, keep up with changes in the world and in policy. But I also began to feel that my own world build has become narrower than I wanted. And I want to see what else was out there. That's why I made this. I created Thrive Life Design. And I chose this name because I believe we all have the capacity to design a thriving life that's intentional, alive, and deeply our own. So that's why you chose my my name. I not chose my name, I chose this name.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

I love the word thrive. And I do see this theme of growth. You've challenged yourself, you've learned English, you went uh to the States to study, you've helped people through obviously counseling, you've co-founded a business and now built your own. I don't know if this is the right word, but scoody guy. So to make or to create, the value in doing that seems to be a theme I see in you. And I see it in myself. I've always had this desire to to learn, to try things. It resulted obviously in me building Ikigai tribe. So would you say you've had this desire to create?

What “Thrive” And “Sanctuary” Mean

SPEAKER_00 14:54

I definitely think so. I'm quite visionary. Uh I didn't think I was, but if I continue with my path, I tend to, for example, you know, if I'm doing something for some times, I master those things. But eventually, maybe I can use this, I can do that. Isn't that great? Or can I make it better? And it's not because this is not enough that I need to change, but I'm more thinking about what if this changes? Isn't that exciting to create something new? Or is that better? Is it gonna be helpful for my clients, for people, for the community? And I tend to think like that. So my imaginations tends to go a bit, how can I say, uh, go wider. And execution can be a challenge, especially for me, but ideas, I get I get to be creative.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Well, I think this is very relatable to thriving. Living, thriving, growing, challenging yourself, widening your your vision on life and the world. So let's discuss these words that are important to your business, thrive and sanctuary. And so how would you define thrive in English?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

So it means flourishing and like a seed becoming a tree, growing steadily and spreading outward, and eventually becoming part of something larger. And it carries the image of life expanding, deepening, and continue to grow, like you just described in a bit arier, and you code my intention. That's exactly what I'm creating, the live life design. And in that, in that sense, it may be similar to a ripple effect or butterfly effect, but I'm actually especially interested in how each individual life continues to grow and thrive, and how that even how that then creates something bigger with other individuals that are also thriving on their own term.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Love it. Let's talk about sanctuary.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Yeah, when I use the word sanctuary, I mean a space where a person can pause, breathe, and come back to themselves and reconnect with their strengths. It can be a physical space or we can create through conversation, but the feeling is the same. Peace, quality, and renewal. So I created this space for internationally minded leaders in Japan because their impact reaches far beyond themselves. They shape not only their own lives, but also the lives of their loved ones and the people around them, the teams they lead, the communities they serve, and the next generation. And those things, they're important part of their life and in return affect them both personally and professionally. And I also want to make it clear that my work through Thrive Life Design is not therapy. And unlike therapy, which can take many different forms depending on the modality, theory, or settings, so its base is not centered on specific presenting concerns, symptoms, or mental health issues. So I draw the line here.

Reflection, Naisei, And Being Heard

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Nice. I'd like to quote your website. Explicitly for you, the quiet, introspective, creative, self-led leader or visionary, you're capable, you're good at what you do, and you want a mirror to reflect. So you can show up as your authentic self. Authenticity, I think, really matters, especially if you want to lead others. I don't think you can wear a mask when you lead. You have to be yourself. I also think leaders suffer from the curse of ambition. We want to change the world or create positive change in our society. One idea is not enough. Sometimes one business is not enough. So I think there is this need for a sanctuary for leaders to stop and pause and question their decisions, their ambitions, because often leaders do sacrifice family, personal pursuits, friendships, because they're so focused on change, wanting to change. It's interesting you say they need or they want a mirror, but they don't find the time to look at it and reflect, and hence your business.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Or it can be helpful for them to maximize their ambition or power that they already have. So I'm creating this space as a like 90 minutes, or it can be a little shorter, because you don't necessarily need hours of self-reflection. You don't need a mirror forever, because you may need uh just a little bit of pause to reflect, because you can see, you may be able to slow down enough to see what's coming, what's happening, and they can move forward.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Let's touch on reflection. And when I think of reflection, many Japanese words come to mind. I know there's hansei. I know there's another word called naisei. So naisei comes to mind when it's personal reflection. So our reflection and Japanese naisei, are they the same?

SPEAKER_00 21:07

They can overlap. And when I explain my work in Japanese, I use the term naisei because it gives people a familiar starting point. But for me, reflection is a little broader than that. It includes looking inward, like naisei, reflecting, but also awareness, presence, and the insight that can emerge through speaking or being heard with somebody else. So that would create a bit of like if you continue to reflect on yourself, what you see is through your lens. But if you do that with somebody else, it may be able to give you an opportunity to reflect differently. And I love the moment when a person is talking and suddenly says, Did I just say this out loud? Or like, you know, as I talk to you more, I'm realizing this and that. It's almost like a light bulb goes on in their mind. And I can see that moment, not only in their words, but also in their posture, facial expression, and the voice. So I really like that moment because that can lead to size, meaning like coming to life again. So remembering who they are and what they have and take a step forward. And reflection is not always about analyzing, fixing, or planning what to do next. It is also about slowing down enough to notice what's already here and allowing meaning to unfold naturally.

Reflection As A Tool Not A Cure

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Yeah, I love this. I relate this to perhaps what I call ikigai coaching. So I think you need reflection or some form of introspection. And journaling is very helpful to do that. But also when you have. Conversation, a very intentional, focused conversation, and you're you're guided to some degree, it is a type of reflection. You're verbalizing it. And as you you said, sometimes you have these moments of, oh, I just said what I've been trying to say for the first time in months or years, or I've had this intuition, and now I've articulated it. It has some form or structure. I also believe co-reflection is very helpful, and we can we can share perspective or lived experience that can create comfort or different perspective. And conversing is connection. It's a type of intimacy. And I think we need it more in this world where you know we're we're having these short exchanges with our phones. We're not talking, we're not listening enough. And often the problem is we're talking to someone and they're not listening, or we're not listening. We're away in our thoughts, worried about work or another problem. So creating space to reflect and to talk, I think is very, very valuable. So perhaps we should talk on why why is reflection or nice say important?

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Because it creates space. And like I just mentioned earlier, it helps us slow down enough to notice where we are, how we are really feeling, how far we have come, and what may need our attention. So oftentimes we often go through scarcity. We are not enough. This is not enough. You know, we should improve more, we should move forward. But if you stop a bit and deflect, it'll give you an opportunity to think like, I am enough, or maybe we are already doing okay enough. But when life moves fast and we carry a lot of pressure, roles, and responsibilities, it is super easy to stay on outpilot. So reflection can interrupt that. It creates a moment of awareness, and awareness gives us more choice, and also that leads to more ideas. But I don't believe reflection is the only tool. Sometimes or many times, what we may need is rest, a bit of movement, or change the environment, action, or any other kind of support. It could be coaching, it could be therapy, or it could be something else. What's important is to have different tools and use what works in that moment for us. So one thing may work for somebody. Well, just because it works for you, it doesn't mean it works for everyone. And it just because it doesn't work for you at that moment, it doesn't mean that it's not gonna work at all. Or one thing works at particular moment, but if the situation changes, the time is different, it might not work. So my belief is that it's very nice for us to have different ways of reflections or tools or things that work for you. And if you know those skills or tools, you'll be able to pick and choose what works at that moment for you. So that's why reflection is great, but it's not the only tool.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Yeah, I like this idea. It's it's almost like we have a self-care toolbox. And based on our intuition or gut feeling, we can decide. And I have this belief that for most people, if you spend too much time alone, you become delusional, and you have these false beliefs about you, about others, and positivity starts to shift to you know, you being negative. And I know this happens to me, and then that can lead to you interpreting life's events in this negative mindset, and then you have the negativity towards life, which I think can lead to rumination and then resentment, all based on these delusions. I call them silent plagues of the mind. So-and-so did this to me, or I'm still angry about something that happened months ago. So they keep people trapped in the past, preventing them from moving forward. So I have a question. Is reflection the solution or part of the solution when we have this delusional mindset and we end up ruminating or resenting people or life?

Reflection Room And Soul Story Tarot

SPEAKER_00 28:21

I'm glad you asked this question. I think this is very important. So thank you so much for asking this. Um I would not present refraction as a solution to rumination or resentment, or promise that it will definitely make someone feel better or solve the problems. You know, those experiences can be very complex. And when somebody feels stuck in repetitive thoughts or emotional pain, refraction alone may not be enough, and it will not be enough. So if someone is struggling in a way that's significantly affecting their well-being, relationships, work, home, or daily functioning, then appropriate professional mental health support will be the better path. So that's one reason that I'm clear that my work through Stripe Life Design is not therapy, and I still take that boundary seriously. Because reflection itself is helpful, but there's always different lines, like how much this is impacting you, how much this is showing up, then I would just encourage. There's always a different way of helping, and different toolkits are there. There are many different professionals that be able to, they'll be happy to help those people.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

So let's talk about these services you offer. And I'm, who knows, eventually one day I'm I might come to you and go into your reflection room and have a conversation with you. So you offer two forms of deep reflection. Would you like to talk about them?

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Sure. One is the reflection room, a one-on-one conversation space where people can look more closely at what's happening in their life, what they are carrying, and what may be emerging next. And it's flexible, personal, and shaped around the individual. Basically, you decide when, what you want to talk about, and the results you would like to get. A person and I work together, uh, together as a team. The other is tarot, and which I use as a reflective tool rather than as fortune telling. The method that I use is called Jinsei Monogatari Taroto, Soul Story Tarot, and it's created by Yumiko Sakano, a Japanese certified clinical psychologist. So in this 90-minute session, I would say 90 minutes, but usually it takes a little over 90 minutes because we work with 46 cars across 23 categories to explore your situation from multiple angles. So it's quite structured, and unlike the reflection room. So we will look at your current themes, the core challenge, what might be ready to be released, your next clear step, you know, your communication styles, or your strengths. And it helps you see the patterns, in your tensions, and choices and possibilities. And also offer the combination of these two, tarot and reflection room. That's my service.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

I must admit, initially I thought, tarot cards, that's uh unusual, like is it woo-woo? But it it seems like they're prompts, very helpful prompts to discuss aspects of your life. And then it yeah, it guides the conversation to go to areas maybe you you haven't thought about.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Or maybe be helpful in bringing up concerns or issues you have and you're just not ready to articulate them.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

So that's interesting. My my wife used to love tarot cards. So you'll have to meet my wife. Love to have a conversation inspired by tarot cards.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

So on these two types of reflection, is the intention for your reflection room to create Utory?

Next Steps After A Clearer View

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Yes, exactly. Um be both objective and subjective, and it is something external like time, space, fewer demands or fewer to-do lists, but it can also be internal, like a felt sense of room within yourself. So in that sense, I see both the reflection room and tarot as a kind of subjective U Tori. And for Utori, again, we cannot see U Tori. And depending on what you consider U Tori, it might be different from another person consider U Tori as. But this will create a space. And what I'm hoping is to create an opportunity for people to loosen their tight shoulders, let their creativity come back, regain energy and strength, so that they can return to the world more fully themselves.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

It is interesting that we often pay to get help, and it involves dialogue, either therapy or coaching, how can we better our lives? So there's definitely this human need to be listened to, to be heard, to be understood, and then maybe guided. Sometimes we just want to be listened to and be heard and understood, and then other times we want that, but we also need some guidance, like some possibility and hope. So we should discuss what's the next step after reflection.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

There are two ways to answer to that question. On one level, the next step after reflection depends on the person. It may lead to a clear decision, a meaningful conversation, or simply a more honest awareness of what's true or what's important for them. And not every step can be dramatic or aha moment. And for some people, the next step is also continued reflection. They may return for occasional check-ins and use that space as a kind of strategic reflection space, like monthly, every other month, or as needed. For some people, ongoing reflection itself may become a next step. But on another level, for my business, the next step is continued evolution. I'm creating meaningful opportunities that bring creativity and a thoughtful human connection. And as I mentioned to you, I'm discovering the beauty of Japan. There are so many things that I don't know about this culture, so many things that I like to learn and enjoy. So I'll be creating something to embrace life here and the culture, different cultures with other people who share similar values, interests, and vibes. So that's my next step.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Maybe that's your ikigai. Rediscovering Japan. Yeah? Would you say it's part of your ikigai?

How To Connect And Intro Rates

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Definitely. Yes. I definitely took Japanese culture for granted. And I was, again, I was so focused on American culture and English. And so maybe I think a lot of people, many people experience the same thing. Once you are outside of that country, and once you come back, you rediscover wow, this is wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

I hear that a lot from my Japanese friends who've lived overseas. And often when they're overseas, they get many questions about Japan. And then they begin to realize, oh, Japan is unique. It is fascinating. It has this incredible history. It has all these cultural practices. And then you come back and yeah, you're rediscovering this amazing culture and history and people. It's certainly my iky guide to learn more about Japan. So I might join you on that journey of rediscovering and learning.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Yeah, we can thrive together.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Sounds good. Best way to do it is with others sharing the journey.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

So if if someone's listening to this and they're in Japan and they're leading, or they just need time to reflect, how can people reach out to you, Chair?

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yes. I actually have two websites. So one is a Thrive Life Design website. And will you be sharing this website link later on?

SPEAKER_02 37:35

We will share your website links in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Great, thank you. The first one is a black website. The call is black. And it talks about the reflection room and tarot that I mentioned to you during this podcast. I actually have another website. It's the same UL URL slash J A and it's yellow page. That's for Japanese readers. I put English version too, but for Japanese readers or bilingual readers who are interested in tarot. But the yellow website, it has just one tarot session only, not reflection, a combination of the reflection room or tarot. And I'm also quite active on LinkedIn. So if people want to connect me through LinkedIn, I'd be happy to get in touch. And I'm currently offering introductory rate through April 30th. So if people contact me and request services and also complete the payment by then, you can get the introductory rate. And then you also have until the end of May 31st to come to receive a session. But after that, everything will be going back to a different rate. So if people are interested in, please contact me.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

Sounds good. So just to confirm that's thriveledesign.com. And then the Japanese, it's the same domain, just with thrivelifedesign.com forward slash J A slash, obviously for the Japanese language. I would take up the offer if you're in Japan and you're listening to this and it's still April. Book a session with Chia. Do some reflecting. Who knows? It it might help you process some concerns. It might give you some direction. Might even change your life. It's been a joy speaking to you today, Chia. Thank you for sharing your life and the work that you do. And we should catch up when I'm in Tokyo.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Please. Love to meet you in person.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Awesome. Thank you very much for your time today.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Thank you so much. Appreciate it.