Reflections on A Year Of Ikigai with Nicholas Kemp

Caitlin Kight returns again to host the Ikigai Podcast to interview Nick on his new book, A Year of Ikigai.

In this episode, Nick shares how Japanese voices, careful cultural research and daily prompts, helped him write a book that the reader can actually use. 

This epsidoe covers: 

• A 365-day reflective journey built around roles, relationships, rituals, contribution, and belonging  
• How this book differs from Western ikigai takes and why Japanese perspective matters  
• What living in Japan and speaking Japanese changes about interpreting Japanese philosophy  
• The messy reality of writing 365 short entries, scrapping drafts, and finding themes  
• Fact-checking Japanese terms, tea ceremony concepts, and misquoted haiku  
• Why prompts matter and how action turns reflection into felt ikigai  
• Favorite entries including “What Matters Today” and the surprising “Ikigai Is Found In Revenge” reframed toward forgiveness  
• The “four A’s” thread: awareness, affirmation, agency, and action  
• Translation news and why one-word concepts reshape how we think  
• Ikigai at work, workplace belonging, and healthier coping versus quick fixes  

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:37

It was remembering words and then r researching them and making sure I understood them. So there were words on energy like honky and nonky and and people can learn those words in the book. And I had to make sure I I have this idea, but I want to make sure it it's accurate. Welcome everyone to a very special episode. I'm delighted to be joined once again by Caitlin Kite as my guest host. Caitlin, you interviewed me for my first book, which you edited back on episode 45. You're very close to the Ikigai tribe community and journey, having completed the certification. You joined our inaugural retreat in Japan. I've interviewed you. So we've shared the journey almost from day one. So good to have you here. Thank you. Good to be back. So we're going to explore my new book, A Year of Vicky Guy, and you are the lady with the questions, so I will let you take over.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Okay. Thank you very much. So you have this new book. I think I was trying to remember this is your third book.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

That is correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Right? So this is your third book, and we'll come back to those previous ones later. But now can you start us off by giving us a brief overview of the new one before we start diving down into detail?

How The Book Differs From Others

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Certainly. It's basically what the title says it is. It's a year of Ikigai, so a 365-day reflective journey exploring Ikigai. And I'd say it explores Ikigai as a spectrum, and it brings in Japanese perspectives. So it touches on all these ideas of roles, relationships, rituals, uh, acts of contribution, moments of belonging, quiet experiences, all these things that make our life feel worth living. And on and on it goes with 365 entries.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

So I've, as you've said, I've been on your retreat, I've taken your course, I've read your other books. So I have already some insights and I can see where what you just said aligns to those things. But for people who maybe haven't partaken of your other projects, could you maybe explain a little bit about how this book is different from your other books that you've written and from your other experiences, your course and your trips?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

In many ways, it's the same content repackaged for easy reading, I would say. But it also brings a stronger Japanese voice from people from all walks of life. And it shares 50 Japanese ikigai, from Zen priests to ikigai researchers, to mothers, to fathers, to children, to university students. So that's probably the biggest difference. My first book really looked at the research and drew from my podcast conversations. This draws from asking Japanese directly, can you share one or two of your Ikigai sources? And it also brings in all these other cultural elements that we'll might touch on later. So it's less academic and it's it's something you can put into practice with the prompts and obviously much easier to read, with the idea being it's a daily reflective prompt.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

And just listening to you speak, I was remembering our trip to Japan. And when we were going around the country and encountering different people, folks in our group would often ask, you know, what is your ikigai? And it was really interesting to hear from that range of different people and to see what their perspectives were. So I guess your book sounds like kind of if you can't get to Japan, it's the second best thing, is you can still get those those ideas from Japanese people themselves, but through the book rather than being there in the country.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

It's a bit strange to ask people or ikigai. I mean, I was asked, that was my ex my first experience. So in a way, that that can happen because that happened to me years ago, like 1998. When Japanese talking about Ikigai comes out very naturally. So it it seemed a bit strange, you know, contacting all these people on my network saying, hey, I'm writing a book on Ikigai. Would you like to share your Ikigai? But some of them really appreciated the opportunity. Like they had a moment to pause and think about it. And I got all these incredible perspectives on Ikigai, from children to retirees. I'm hoping these come across as short conversations with all these Japanese.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Well, and and you speak in your introduction about that experience of being asked and how that's allowed you to find out about this concept to begin with, even though that sat latent for a little while before you picked it back up again more recently. And you also talk in that introduction about the journey of the West coming into contact with Ikigai. And I know you've spoken about that on the podcast before, so you might not want to go into tons of detail now. But it did sort of relate to a question I did want to ask about how this book on Ikigai is different from others that are out there. And some of those others I know are a bit more in that Western vein. So would you like to talk about that a little bit?

Living In Japan And Authenticity

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Sure. I think in a nutshell, most books talk about Ikigai as that that sweet spot. I'm presenting it as a spectrum. Also, in the West, we love this romantic notion it's from Okinawa and the secret to longevity. That's never mentioned, certainly not by the 50 Japanese who share their Ikigai. So I'm trying to bring as much truth, but in a light, easy, digestible way with Japanese perspective. And seemingly all the other books on Ikigai don't really consider the Japanese perspective or mindset on the concept. Maybe they touch on it lightly. And there's this irony that one of the books is a bestseller. I won't mention the title, but in the book it it talks about advice from centenarians from other other countries, other blue zones. It it introduces Tai Chi. Um and it I think it was more of a case study on a particular village in Japan, and it created these ideas of Ikigai's from Okinawa, Ikigai's The Secret to Happiness, Ikigai's uh the key to longevity. And you find it in this sweet spot. And you know what I you know my relationship with the Venn diagram. I'll say that. And I I think this happens a lot with Japanese words. And most people are reading someone's best translation or interpretation, and often the authors either never really lived in Japan, or they may have lived, but they've decided to go with more like a personal perspective rather than a perspective of Japanese.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Well, that raises an interesting question, which probably is relevant not just to this book, but to all of your work. How would you say that your insights about Ikigai and other Japanese concepts have been flavored by actually living in Japan and speaking Japanese and being able to access certain resources that are only in the Japanese language?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

I often say the amazing thing or wonderful thing about Japan is everything is different. Everything. The way they communicate, eats behave, their ideas on nature, on communication, on what makes life worth living. And then I also say the most challenging thing about living in Japan is that everything is different. And you you have to learn and adapt. And once you do, you you actually begin to fall deeply in love with Japan and you you see a different world. My time there greatly influenced the book in probably more ways I understand. And I I had all these realizations, all things that came back to me, these memories of lessons learned or experiences. It really impacted the way I approached the book, but I also was very aware I want to be authentic. And I was almost writing the book for Japanese, I guess in in my, you know, in my heart or in my kokoro, I should say.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Well, that also relates to something else I wanted to follow up and ask you about, which is to say that when you first learned about Ikigai and then started reaching out to people and asking and reading articles and things, obviously you had your own journey of what you learned at what point and what that, you know, how each of those things led to another. Would you say that that's the same journey that you've created in the course of your book over those 365 entries? Or have you rearranged certain things to make that perhaps a little bit more linear, a little bit easier, more accessible?

Writing Routine Anxiety And Themes

SPEAKER_00 10:47

It's not the same journey because I imagine some of the readers are familiar with the word as the Western idea. I was introduced to the word and and just understood it, wow, yeah, you have one word to articulate all this. And I wanted to continue that conversation with the person who introduced the word to me. And as you know, the next day I went into work, she'd been transferred, and I was really disappointed. And then I didn't really hear the word in use that often after that. I'd I'd hear uh actually a yaddy guy, that other word, like what's worth doing quite often. And then I discovered 20 years later, the Venn diagram, oh icky guys, it's gone viral. And then I I knew it's it's not that I remember this word, but I really don't know anything about it. So then I made that conscious decision to learn about it, and I thought, oh, a podcast would be a great way. So the the learning journey might be similar, it's just out of order. And obviously living in Japan is very different to reading a book, but I I hope the book gives people glimpses of Ikigai in the context of Japan and Japanese culture and what it means to individual Japanese.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

So let's let's take a shift from thinking about the content of the book to how you actually put all that together, because writing a book is obviously a huge accomplishment. Congratulations. Um, but can you kind of, if you can bear it, I know it's a bit painful to reflect on this sometimes, can you tell us what your writing routine was like? So how you actually looked at all of this information that you've gained from trips and from living there and from conversations and started to package this up. So, how did you start?

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Well, you remember we were on the retreat when I was telling you guys about it. I have this opportunity and there was all this discussion on how I should write the book. And initially it was this sense of excitement, and then over time it turned into extreme anxiety. I thought, I'm not going to be able to finish this book. I just can't randomly throw out 365 Ikigai sources or something. Eventually I realized I could write on themes. Pretty much after exploring Ikigai from every possible angle, you know, Ikigai's experiential, Ikigai's philosophical, ikigai's psychological, ikigai's proactive, ikigai's passive, ikigai's all these ideas. And then I still ran out. And you know, you find Ikigai in humor. You can feel it in revenge, you can feel it in the misfortune of others. And I was like exploring Ikigai from every possible perspective, but I still ran out. So then I thought there are relatable concepts to Ikigai like key, like energy. There are cultural practices that imbue Ikigai, like tea ceremony or haiku. Basically, I wrote a first draft and then I scrapped most of it and then rewrote it.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Oh wow. Well, that must have hurt.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Yeah, it did hurt. And I was I was in Japan when I wrote that, and it was this bittersweet experience. I was stuck in this apartment or a hotel room trying to finish off this book thinking this is crazy. I I should be enjoying myself in Japan. I'd go to a cafe and be miserable thinking I can't, I can't get another idea out of this concept, or I I can't write it. But yeah, eventually themes popped up, and then it was almost convincing the publisher like haiku is a source of ikigai, and there are haiku that we can reference that articulate a perspective of ikigai. And let's do at least five of those. Um I was so desperate, I was almost going for Japan's micro seasons just to think I could fail a book with that.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

72 things right there.

unknown 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

But no, that's not gonna work. Themes.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah. So a bit of a tangent. Um, I'm just thinking about the number of podcasts you have hosted and the people you've talked to. Do you still learn new things? Are there still surprises? Or given what you've just said about actually, you know, you kind of got to a point where you couldn't see anything else to do, do you feel like you kind of know it all?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

No, definitely not. And often I'll I'll learn a perspective on Ikigai from a non-Japanese who's articulating the concept. And one of someone I follow and a friend, he put up a video and he said, We're all wanting aliveness. I thought, wow, that's probably the closest word to Ikigai. Aliveness. Ikigai is what makes you feel alive, what makes you come to life. And the timing of it was really interesting because our our football seasons just started. And when people go to the football and their favorite player kicks a goal, all the supporters come to life and they stand up and scream and yell. And that is the moment of Ikigai. I definitely learn different perspectives with every guest. And I I kind of also learn the potential of Ikigai. Um, I've I've had a Japanese counselor who lives in New Zealand, and she's caught when someone's on the verge of taking their own life. She's had conversations using Ikigai to tweak their mind and to say, well, what's something small that makes your life worth living? And they'll end up saying, Oh, my pet or my dog, and it will it will tweak their mind and change their their actions and their life. It might save their life. It's always fascinating to to have a conversation. The learning never ends. I keep saying Ikigai is the gift that keeps on giving. Always learning. It's always connecting me to people.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Which is in itself a form of ikigai, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

That's it. Ikigai is relational. So I touched on that in the book.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Well, I was gonna say, you know, since we're speaking about people, it'd be really interesting to hear if you think there are particular people that would really benefit from reading this, or is is there someone that you would just love to see in a photograph holding the book and you'd think, yes, I'm so glad they have a copy of my book?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I thought about this question, and I I I think I said this from my last book. Oh, actually, I think from my last book I said, Oh, I wish my parents were alive to be able to read it. But I would love to hear that many Japanese purchased the book and found it worth reading. And actually, someone did share the following on LinkedIn. Thank you for sharing Japanese culture and ikigai so beautifully, respectfully, and sincerely. I felt so much love while reading your book. I hope that every person who reads it discovers a beautiful sense of Ikigai or peace within themselves. And I should say thank you to Minako for sharing that. So that obviously makes me happy. I guess the marketer in me would hope that one of these um podcast hosts who you have tens of thousands of views every minute would interview me or something. So it'd be good to get a copy in their hands. Um But I think if Japanese feel I've done a good job, that's gonna make me very happy.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

It's interesting hearing that quotation you just shared from LinkedIn because I think I've read some books as well where I I I do feel like I physically feel almost like a warmth and a happiness, a lift from reading it. And I often I'm really interested in books that you could broadly classify as self-help or reflection, because I think sometimes there is a real gem in there. Other times they do feel kind of like a marketing, you know, exercise. They're just selling something to someone. But what one of the things that I've noted, you know, in in our conversations about Ikigai, in in your previous book, in this book, is that you do read it and it feels, I don't want to say weighty in the sense of like, oh, this is heavy, but it feels real. There's real substance. And even in short entries, that substance comes through. And you do feel that that sense of like, wow, I'm reading something that's having meaning, it's having impact, like I can work with this. And it's a quite, it's a very different feeling from other types of self-help books.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Well, that's the both the pain and joy of writing the book, because you you spend a long time getting one entry just right, and it can take a long time, and you give up and you you come back to it. But once you kind of get it, you think, oh, this is what I want to say. There is that sense of satisfaction. I kind of wrote it and then I didn't look at it. This is after I actually finished the book and then it was off with the publisher, and then it was going to be printed. One day I started to reread it and I thought, oh, some of this is pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Well done me. Who wrote this?

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Yeah, so but it's almost like, oh, if one entry, even just one entry makes someone think a little bit differently, or makes them curious, or if they connect to the idea, even that's enough.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

So you mentioned that you were working on this for a long time. Dare I ask how long? How long from start to finish did it take you to get the book ready?

Research Fact Checking And Prompts

SPEAKER_00 20:37

It's it's kind of hard because you when you say it took me a couple of years, obviously it it doesn't take you a couple of years, right? But the the process was unusual because I got the opportunity and they wanted 30 entries, the put the publisher. So I quickly wrote 30 entries, and we've been uh like a day, and they're like, Yep, good, keep going. And I thought, wow, that's weird, like no feedback, no suggestions. So I was thinking it's it's not that good. You know, I took my time writing here and there. But once the deadline became real, and then I started to reread it all, I thought, oh, this sucks. All of it's crap. I have to rewrite it. And then I had two and a half months to really rewrite it, and that's when I happened to go back to Japan. And I mean a deadline really clears the mind. Yeah, if you've got to deliver. And I did write to the publisher and they go, Oh, this happens to everyone, it's okay, and what you're written is fine, and just finish it. And I I'm very grateful for the opportunity, but at the same time, I thought, no, I've I've got to rewrite it. So I just did without really letting them know. And then I said, I just need more time and need more time. Oh, I need more time, I need more time. I think it's paid off, and I think they're happy. So we'll we'll talk about that maybe later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Well, I just wanted to to come back to something you have kind of touched on this already, but I just sort of wanted to clarify that you know, when you were re-writing and when you were finding things falling into themes, were you doing new research for this book? I mean, I know you mentioned that you reached out to your Japanese network, but kind of the other facts, was that new research, or was that more you looking at what you already knew and then starting to kind of align those themes and see those patterns?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

It was remembering words and then r researching them and making sure I understood them. So there were words on energy like honky and nonky, and and people can learn those words in the book. And I had to make sure I I have this idea, but I want to make sure it it's accurate. Uh and then what can you say, Jacku, the these four elements of tea ceremony? I wanted to be sure I was utterly. Articulating them authentically. And then a lot of haiku online is dodgy. It's either misquoted or it doesn't really exist. So then I had to make sure the entries I had chosen, I could reference them. And that was interesting. Because I thought, oh, that's a cool haiku, and it's no one really knows whether it's true or who actually wrote it. So there was a lot of research, like evalidating ideas and making sure I knew words. There was a lot of fact-checking and speaking to Japanese friends or my wife about certain words.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

I I really relate to that because I find often that I think I know something until I'm actually at the point of writing it down or maybe teaching it. And then I suddenly start to doubt myself and think, well, where did that come from? Or is this quite a shallow understanding? Like what if someone asks a question? And you can do it like almost every single word, and suddenly you're just you think you're right at the end, and you have to keep researching new stuff. And it just time stretches on, and you think, I just want to finish this, but I also want to be sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

It's like a week on one word trying to work out, oh, is it really this? So yeah, very painful. Um rigorous. Rigorous.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

So I have a I have a question as well about um the entries. And you have mentioned already, you've alluded to the fact that you've got prompts. So um, and in it's worth saying as well, just in case people haven't read it yet, in the introduction, you do specifically say, look, probably the best way to read this book is to go through in chronological order, read each entry in that order, and think about what it says, respond to the prompt. So um it's just really interesting to think about the fact that you do have all of these prompts. I'm really curious, where did they come from? Where did you get the ideas? Are these things that you've all done yourself, or were you thinking, actually, I haven't, but if I were to, what would help me to engage with it?

Standout Entries Revenge And Forgiveness

SPEAKER_00 25:10

This is probably where I struggle with the book. And this was also the idea of the publisher. I think it was a good idea because i Ikigai is like proactive. Okay, so it is something we we action. We action something, we have an experience, and then we feel Ikigai. And that's the whole point of the book is not just reflect, but then go and engage with that potential source of Ikigai. I found it hard because I would be writing the entry, and then it'll be up to my word count, like 80 to 100 words, and then it's like, oh no, I've got to add a prompt now. I got help from the editor with some because I just I couldn't do, I couldn't do it. I was like, oh, I don't know what to add here. Like, I really don't. It's really weird for me as the writer because I was working on multiple entries a day, and I wasn't even thinking about, oh, someone's gonna read just this entry today, and and hopefully they'll follow the prompt. I was more concerned I've got to finish this entry and then do the next one, and rereading multiple entries uh a day and checking and and making sure I wasn't um being repetitive. I needed help, but now some of them really make sense, and I do hope people reflect and then follow the prompt and action it because that's that's the only way to feel icky guy and experience it in a new way.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Well, and I know what I just said about going through every entry. So I that's the ideal. But if someone only saw one or two, is there anything that you like you really hope you think that's the one that would influence, that would change someone's mind or could change their life? Is it maybe about something you want them to know or a thing you'd want them to do?

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Probably a good starter entry. Day 11. Ikigai's what matters? Who and what matters to you today. If you can answer this question, then you have uncovered your Ikigai, at least for the present moment. What matters to you will change as the circumstances of your life change. Some sources of Ikigai will remain constant in your life while others will come and go. As a lived experience, Ikigai is both enduring and ephemeral. What's important is to appreciate it in the now. What matters to you right now, go and do it. Who matters to you right now? Spend time with them. That's a good start.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Seems pretty worthy message.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

And then what's another one? Here we go. You're like this. Uh this is day 113. Ikigai is found in revenge. This is true, yeah. So here we go. Ikigai is felt in the desire for revenge. If you have ever been taken advantage of or treated unfairly, feelings of fate and the desire for vengeance naturally comes to the surface. Revenge is an instinctive impulse that's hard to control when others have humiliated or betrayed you. Enacting your revenge may feel justified and even satisfying when achieved, but this is an icky guy I encourage you not to express. Instead, practice forgiveness, compassion, and let the desire for revenge go. Who in your life would you like to bring yourself to forgive?

SPEAKER_01 28:54

I like the way you've rerooted that, made it a little bit more positive. That's a really funny one given the very kind of Zen influence in Japanese culture to think that that could also live side by side.

Awareness Agency And Small Daily Ikigai

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Well, that that came inspired by a podcast interview when I found out uh that the guest had interviewed these health and ikigai creation advisors, and they shared that yes, some of the people they coached or counseled had this in intense feeling of um revenge for some people that gave them the will to live. Like, I'm not gonna die before that. And that they they kind of felt Ikigai in I I want my revenge or I will get my revenge. And perhaps when they did, it felt good.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

It feels like something from a fantasy movie, you know, like the the the knight with the sword is is hanging on to the bitter end until he can kill all his foes.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Vengeance. Vengeance will be mine and it will be my ikigai.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Well, maybe, maybe moving that in a slightly more positive direction. If someone were to read all the way through the book and and think about all of these things, learn all this knowledge, you know, follow all the prompts, how do you think they might be changed? Or or how do you hope that they might be changed by engaging with these mostly positive things?

SPEAKER_00 30:19

I hope it brings awareness. We we need to be more aware. And this is the challenge of our life. We're overstimulated, we're stressed, we're right, worried about this and that, we're annoyed with something in the past or frustrated, we we have memories, we have fears. And we're we're never, well not never, we're not as aware as we probably should be, especially with stimulation of devices and screens. So that's what I hope that that it helps people pause. But I hope it affirms their current icky guy. When they don't take their current icky guy for granted, and they realize, ah, I do have a lot of icky guy at my fingertips, and I I could savor it more, whether it's your coffee in the morning, we have cats, so the purr of our cats when we cuddle up to them, laughter with a friend, just a meaningful moment with someone, and so on. And then I want people also to understand there's agency, and you you can decide how much icky guy you want in your life, you can decide what it is, and you can go and get more if you want. And then that would lead to action. Go out and do something to feel it, catch up with a friend, call a friend, um, do something maybe challenging, do something relaxing, do something you gave up, uh, do something you've always wanted to try. So this awareness uh affirming agency action is I guess you call the four A's of Ickigai, but but I really hope it's bring awareness to people so they pause and think, oh, yeah, life is good, or this this makes me come alive. Why aren't I doing it? I should go out and do it, or why aren't I seeing this person? I should spend more time with this person.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

I I really I noted how you corrected yourself because at first you said, well, you know, we never do this, and then you said, well, we often don't, you know, it's l it's less common. And that's something I notice a lot in again, not not to use the self-help term, but in in things that are about kind of well-being and mental health and and trying to help people get back on track. They often will say, Oh, we never do this. And I I I really I find my feathers get ruffled by that because I think that that that's so negative. And I don't want to be naive, but I think lots of people are increasingly aware and they are trying to do these things, but they're, you know, they're pressed for time. They don't know when they can do it or how can they do it. And they have these fleeting moments. And I what I quite like, one of the things I quite like about Iki Guy and and the messaging you give around this is how bite-sized some of these things can be. And it can be something really small, it can be the coffee or whatever, which is it you can put that in your daily routine. It's accessible. And I I like that that repositions this and says, yeah, you might think you never do this or you don't have the time, but actually, did you realize that this is one form of that? And here's where you can, you know, sneak it in. So it's a very affirming sort of message.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Yeah, uh on the subject of coffee. I have black coffee with malt, like malt malt syrup. And it gives it this nice caramel kind of almost not not like brown sugar, but maybe close to brown sugar, sort of a deep caramel taste, and it seems to go down a little bit s smoother. And I really enjoy. And then um I can see my deck, and this morning I I did take out my guitar, made a little tune, and had this moment. Wasn't life-changing, but maybe it was day changing.

unknown 34:11

Yeah.

Translation Language And One Word Power

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Started my day in a better way. Now I had plenty of work to do, and I I could have just thought, oh no, I don't have time, I better get started on work, but I thought, no, I'm gonna my body and this was after a walk too. So sometimes your body communicates my body was basically saying you need to go for a walk this morning. And I thought, okay, I'll go for a walk. And you feel better, I'll have this coffee with malt and play a little guitar, then dive into to work. And yeah, I've had a a few icky guy moments. That the walk, the coffee, the playing of the guitar, and it it's made my day start well and probably made my day better than had I started thinking, oh, I've got to get this proposal done and prep for this podcast and all these things.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

It just gives you that little boost and allows you to put the the more positive spin on something.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Centers you, grounds you.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

So I'm switching gears again. Uh before the podcast, we were talking about how your book is being translated into several different languages. So I was hoping that you could talk a little about that, share what languages, if you're allowed, and maybe reflect more generally about how, you know, whether and how this concept of Ikigai translates into these different cultures. We sort of touched on that already, but just thinking about around the world, all these different people, you know, are they gonna see Ikigai similarly? Is it gonna fit into their lives differently? What's that like?

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Well, that's an interesting question. I'm not sure I have the answer, but the languages uh Spanish, German, and Hungarian, which really took me by surprise. And I can't believe it, really. So as you know, and I I don't want to be sounding negative, but I had to do extra English at school. So here I am, you know, writing books. It's just I never would have imagined. On your question, I think every culture knows this idea of aliveness or what makes life worth living. Japan seems, to my knowledge, to be the only culture which has the language that has a word to articulate. Now that there might be uh other languages that have this word, and we just don't know about them, but obviously the whole world has fallen in love with this one-word icky guy. And I I looked into the research, and there's this concept of semantic encapsulation, that a philosophical idea or or a psychological concept that's quite normal and natural for a culture gets encapsulated in one word and used enough to become standard word in their vocabulary. Japan has many of these words. Ibasho, ma, this idea of space, uh, yutori, this idea of mental space, and hundreds more, wabi-subi, and on and on goes. And there's obviously reasons for that, which I won't go into now because I probably really don't know. But I think I've shared with you, I thought about is there weren't any words that are in at least Australian culture that would be unique to us. And the only one I came up came to mind was mateship. That's uniquely Australian. It's difficult to define, but we understand it. It it goes back to our history, it's this idea that goes beyond friendship, it's it's helping people in need, it's both done in a casual friendly way, but also when people really need it. We've got one. Japan's got like hundreds of these words that we're we're yet to explore, and Ikigai is one of them. So that's the appeal. It's like, oh, you've got this one word that articulates this idea of what makes our life worth living or what makes us feel alive. We all can relate to that. That's what we want. We want to feel alive. Um and it also sounds cool, obviously. And then it's got Japanese culture behind it, which makes it, you know, even more fascinating. I I'm sure there are some cultures that have semantic encapsulation, but I'm not sure if they have it for all what makes life worth living.

Ikigai At Work And Healthy Coping

SPEAKER_01 38:45

I was just gonna say that it reminds me of um some things that Lisa Feldman Barrett has written about emotion and emotional vocabulary. And in her book, she talks about how useful it can often be for people to speak more than one language, because it opens up this um whole other set of vocabulary and it allows you to have more granularity in what you're able to recognize and describe and then act on. And I can see where what you've described really fits in with that, where it is a cool word and it sounds cultured and it's fun, but it also does allow us to really pinpoint something that otherwise we don't have the language to think about and then to respond to.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Exactly. Yeah, I mean, what do we say? We might say I don't know what do we say about it. We often try to do that.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Don't we often say like reason for living or something like that, which always does feel a bit in English anyway, kind of misleading in that it's sort of grandiose, isn't it? And it doesn't necessarily capture those small things that give you a boost. It feels like it comes in the wrong direction almost.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

I've seen on video Japanese use it very casually. I think I shared in my first book this tragic social problem in Japan of people dying alone. And they interview a lonely deaths cleaner, so Kodoku Shi, Kodoku alone, and she being to die. And he's being interviewed and saying, Yeah, the job's it's hard, you know, the phone rings, that's good for business, but it means another man's died alone. And once we go into the room after the body's been removed, there's this you know sense of unease and bodies leave stains behind, you've got to clean all that up, you throw out all these this person's personal items often the families don't want the inheritance, they just say take care of it. So this incredibly hard job that most people would not want to do. He said in the interview, I feel like he got from it. And that's because he makes meaning from the role, because he ties it to two things that he's helping the spirit of this person move on, and he's saying, I'm gonna take care of things, I'll clean it all up. But he also has a memory of how painful it was for his own mother to clean out his grandmother's, so her mother's apartment after she died. And he feels his grandmother would be proud of him. So he's making meaning and feeling icky guy from the work that most people on the planet would probably not want to do. And then two craftsmen were talking about their work and their dying craft, but talking how it's so great and it's so life-affirming to dedicate their life to a single craft and this casual conversation over dinner, and one said, Oh, this is what ikigai is, like that casually. When you see it used like that, you realize, oh, it is a common word. It's not this amazing word that we think it is. I mean, we think it's amazing because it it is, right? But Japanese, it's it's a normal word, which makes it even more interesting.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Well, it's interesting that both of those examples that you gave were about kind of livelihoods and jobs. And in my last question, I was asking about cultures, and then in the back of my mind, I was kind of thinking about um, are there certain, you know, business cultures, company cultures where the concept of ikigai might be helpful? And and I know that you have talked to businesses and you've worked with businesses. So I'd I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about taking some of these ideas and prompts. You know, what if what if a company were to do a year of Ikigai? Like what do you think is kind of the fit there between business, corporate jobs, and this concept.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Well, this is interesting. I'm seeing Ikigai being used in Japan related to work more. And if I have conversations with Japanese, they might sort of say to me, Oh yeah, actually, now to come to think of it, yeah, my work is a source of Ikigai. And I'm I'm seeing it in that context. Now, I I don't know if I would give a year of Ikigai to a corporate client, but I am getting these corporate inquiries for workshops, for off-site, corporate facilitation, whether it's Japanese or non-Japanese, they are asking how can we make the workplace a source of ikigai or how can we make ikigai source of ikigai for our employees, and then things like e-bashol come into that. Like every workplace should be an e-bashol, this place where people, in the context of their role, can be themselves. But even Japan went through an Ikigai boom in the 80s, um, thanks to all the literature from like the mid-60s, 70s. And maybe it's gonna go through another boom in Japan because of the Western fascination over the concept.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

It's it's nice though that your book is not just about that, right? It's it's a range of things and it's a balance, which I think is one of the really key things that keeps coming out, is that because Ikigai can be so many things and can manifest in so many ways, that it doesn't just have to be one thing, it can be spread out, which is gives you resilience, it gives you options. So you don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Next Book Tokyo Plans And Closing

SPEAKER_00 44:20

And it can be an ambitious goal for sure. That's that's fine if you have an ambitious goal and it gives you purpose, direction, identity, hope, contribution. That's a powerful source of ikigai. Like Ken Moggy says, it can be something small or something big and everything in between. And I'm starting to say Ikie guy's in the eye of the beholder. Like it's really up to you to decide. And then I'm saying, oh, ikigai is the thing you long for when you're not doing it. And it's also when you feel belonging, it's when you are around friends, when you have an intimate partner and you're you're connected. So it is in the eye of the beholder. Whatever makes you feel alive or feel uh a sense of belonging or gives l your life meaning and work is definitely a a strong source of Ikigai when obviously you're doing work not that you only enjoy but challenges you and gives you purpose. That's it. We we've got to have the mud with the I don't know, the flowers or whatever you want to call it. So it's not about being happy all the time. And we've talked about ikigai as being like a coping mechanism. It can be something unhealthy like the beer at the end of a hard day or it's the cigarette that helps the salary man get through a brutal day of work. Or it can be you know when you just binge watch your favorite TV show. You know, it might be Star Trek for you and me the tenth time because it's got nostalgia and comfort and these themes we resonate with.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

So it really can be anything for anyone so I won't I won't be so cheesy as to ask you what your Ikigai is, but I will ask you probably hopefully maybe on a related note now that a year of Ikigai is out what's your next project?

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Well I'm having a Zoom call with the publisher on Saturday because they want me to write another book.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Oh no you are a glutton for punishment serial author.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

So I've got this initial oh awesome I can write on this and then I'm not thinking about all the pain I'll have to go through yeah you can worry about that later and then I'm going back to Japan uh in May for for a month and I hope to do a a few ichigai things there. I'm going with my wife for a month and we're we're going to road test living in in Tokyo to see if that's going to be a source of ichigai for us in the future. Let's go on frame it.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Yeah. That's very exciting. I I make a small admission I was pausing there to think am I going to say this out loud? I will say it out loud. I'll make a little admission I have been playing Assassin's Creed Shadows uh just set in Japan. Uh and it's lovely it is lovely because I'm not going to go back to Japan in the very near future I think um sadly but it's so nice to see little Japanese details and aspects of life that are like things that we encountered uh so you know down to the kind of the decorations on the edge of the the temple roofs for example or the instruments being played and the change of the seasons and every time I see things that align with what I saw I think oh that's so nice. So when I when I hear you say Tokyo I'm I'm taken back to when we were there and what we saw and what we did, you know, watching the calligraphy being done and listening to the music.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

So I'm I'm very envious of you and I'll be interested to hear how that goes well I do have this very fond memory of you and I having that chat in Gujo Hachiman and we're I think we were eating rice cakes we just had that moment together where we kind of almost like a shared moment of you Tory where we got to reflect and and have a nice chat. So that's a very fond memory. So you're always welcome and if I do live in Japan you're always welcome to to visit you've been my biggest supporter you've edited my first book you've uh helped me when I've been stressed you've been a a friend uh a source of inspiration and you've supported me with pretty much everything I've produced. You're a dear friend and that's why I had you back on the podcast to host. So thank you for being a guest host on Year of Iki Guy.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Yeah thank you very much and I can I can hand over the reins but before I do that I just want to say again huge congratulations. It has been lovely to see one book after another and now to hear about another one maybe on the horizon. So and and I will say as well that everything that you've taught me about Ikigai has been so meaningful and life changing for me but also I embed that in my teaching and so I'm able to spread it to other people as well. So there's a little legacy that you've left here through me and I really do appreciate that. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Oh my pleasure I'd love to sit in one of your classes and see how you rap Ikigai would be cool. Alrighty thanks my friend it was a joy.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

Thank you