The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Aligning Work with Purpose: A Conversation with Tina Bagwell
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What if the problem isn’t workload, but identity? We sit down with coach and HR leader Tina Bagwell to explore how many of us let a single role—the job—define who we are, and why that narrow frame leads to exhaustion, disengagement, and a loss of joy. Tina’s journey starts in Okinawa, where simple rituals, community, and omotenashi left a lasting imprint that later shaped her approach to leadership, culture, and coaching.
Across global teams, Tina uses the Ikigai‑9 assessment and the seven needs identified by Dr. Mieko Kamiya to help people reconnect with what truly matters: resonance, belonging, self‑actualization, and everyday life satisfaction. She shares how Millennials and Gen Z are rejecting linear careers, opting instead for rolefulness—the healthy balance of many roles across work and life. We dig into why “return‑to‑office equals engagement” is a false promise, how boards miss the human core of culture, and why simple behaviors like greetings, real conversations, and gratitude are powerful levers for trust. You’ll hear how women leaders are reframing caretaking and career, reclaiming self‑care as a valid role, and finding presence both at home and at work.
Tina reframes ikigai from a buzzword to a daily practice: checking in with the seven needs during morning coffee, a walk, or a shared meal. If even one need is met, the day carries meaning. We connect this to the creator economy, where younger workers value autonomy and making things that reflect their voice—music, products, code, stories—while using technology as a tool, not a master. The conversation moves from Okinawa to boardrooms to everyday rituals, showing how remembrance, not reinvention, can transform careers and cultures.
If you’re craving purpose, balance, and a more human way to work, this conversation offers practical ideas and language you can use today—whether you lead teams or lead your own life. Enjoyed this one? Follow, share with a friend, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.
Choosing Work As Identity
SPEAKER_00I believe that whether again consciously or unconsciously in the workspace, people tend to choose their work role as their identity, which is why they're miserable. And the realization of bringing Ikigai 9 tool to them and essentially walking them through the Ikigai 7 needs as really helping them realize that they have mini roles.
Tina’s Okinawa Roots And Imprints
SPEAKER_01My guest today is Tina Bagwell, a bespoke coach aligning individuals' leaders and teams into their zone of genius. Tina, your life's work and legacy is to bring depth into the business world and beyond. You are committed to supporting the next generation of HR and people leaders in embracing their responsibility, not just to manage talent, but to cultivate meaning. As an Ikigai tribe coach, you help others discover not only their Ikigai, but their IBash, a place where they truly belong. Welcome to the podcast, Tina.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Nick, for having me on your podcast. It's a real honor to be a part of it and also be a part of the Ikigai tribe cohort.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's good to catch up. And we had a special one-on-one cohort, and I really enjoyed that. So we'll talk about that. But let's start with your connection to Japan. You lived in Okinawa for a number of years in your teens. Do you want to talk about that?
SPEAKER_00Yes, my time living in Okinawa was due to being part of a US military family. My family and I moved to Okinawa in the late 80s, early 90s. Before moving there, the only thing I knew about Okinawa were from the karate kid films. So once moving to the beautiful island, I definitely learned that there was way more complexity and history of the place. The Ryukyu Islands, the people, the culture definitely left an imprint on me. I actually did not realize it at the time because I was just a teenager, but now I know that how I choose to live today is from my experience living there. I choose to live with intention, help others in the community, creating a meaningful purpose and striving to live with positive emotion and way of being. Okinawa at the time had several military installations based on different branches of service. The biggest one in Okinawa is the United States Air Force. They have an Air Force base there called Kadena. And because there are all four branches of the U.S. military services there on the island, there was not enough housing. So the first two years living on the island was actually living off the base, in probably about five to ten kilometers outside of the base, living in an actual Japanese traditional home, being close to the water, and also uh where I actually had other mates that went to the school with me. Uh, there was a large sugarcane field that I would have to walk through to get to my mate's house. And there was something eerily special about walking through the sugarcane fields at all times of the day and night. I would see obviously the cats of the village that we lived in, you know, going through there, catching mice, and just the peaceful, quiet night air, and also just being with my thoughts. And it was just very meditative, actually. And again, at the time I didn't really appreciate that as much as I reflect back on it.
SPEAKER_01Now I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit because you did reveal to me you were a bit of a wild girl back in the day. So did you get up to some trouble?
SPEAKER_00I did get into some trouble with mates there. You know, luckily it was actually easier to get your driving license or driving permit because we were on the military bases, we could get access to vehicles that were very much vintage cars, but our parents really gave us a lot of freedom, and we would spend a lot of time going off base, driving around, racing, um, doing that kind of thing. And so yeah, I got involved in some of that.
SPEAKER_01Hard to believe, but I got up some I got up to quite a bit of no good as well in my teens.
SPEAKER_00So I think that's just part of being a teenager is finding the most dangerous thing that you possibly could, and being maybe not necessarily in it like full on, but just being around it uh to feel something outside of the everyday mundane of being in school, right? And so for us being on the island, we actually would tease each other and say, Oh, I cannot wait to get off this rock. Like we viewed it as being like in some sort of prison, but at the same time, it's probably one of the, if not the most important memories I've ever had as a person, because that's where you're growing and changing, and being on that island really definitely changed me.
Teen Adventures And Island Reflections
Food Memories And Simple Eating
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it had an impact on me. I I remember going just to get a haircut in November, and I I did a quick Google search and found this really cool place, and young staff, they must have just opened this business and incredible service. They gave me a shave and a haircut, and it was a thousand yen. And I said, You cannot be serious, there must be like a mistake, it has to be more than a thousand yen. And I'm like, Oh no, no, no, it's it's a thousand yen for you. And I was like, I should just uh move here just for the haircuts and shaves. So it is beautiful, and it was a bit strange because living in Japan and living in you know Tokyo and where my wife's from, I kind of always had this impression, oh, you know, Okinawa will be a bit different, maybe more casual, more relaxed, which it is, but you still get that amazing uh I guess what you'd call Omotinashi service. So yeah, I I think I'll go back. I only spent a week there. What about your memories of food? Did you get into the food there, or were you largely eating a a Western diet?
Service, Omotenashi, And Daily Life
SPEAKER_00Yeah, in the beginning, definitely, again, because I was living off base, got to try a lot more of the local fare of food. I think, you know, Okinawa's sweet potatoes was my favorite, and I still actually eat quite a bit of that today. You know, yakisoba was probably something I ate four times a week. And uh I wouldn't necessarily say that I got into like sushi because that's not necessarily part of Okinawa's culture. Um, yes, they have fish and uh as part of their diet, but mostly it was very simple food. It wasn't complex, very much about the season and the ingredients of what comes from the farm. And I was also lucky that in school on the military base, we did have some Mama Sans who would work in the cafeteria kitchen as our ladies of, you know, that made lunch for us. And they definitely made a variety of a menu, so it wasn't just American Western foods. So definitely had a variety of like pan-Asian type of menu, which was very lovely and very healthy.
HR Leadership And Global Coaching
SPEAKER_01Nice. Well, there you go, all these wonderful memories. Let's touch on you now. So you have a number of current professional roles. So what are they?
SPEAKER_00Well, I've spent the last few decades in in the field of human resource management. So as of late, specifically working with global organizations in a global role, and that is mostly being a HR leader who provides coaching, a thought partner to the business leaders and the teams as they navigate their ongoing changes with their business model. In the last five years, since the pandemic, I have really focused on my coaching role or elevated that part of the role to helping people in the workplace find meaning with the work that they do, purpose, and belonging so that they can thrive in a very demanding work environment.
Volunteering And Women’s Career Support
SPEAKER_01We're going to touch on all those themes, but you shared with me that you also do some volunteer work with women. So can you share what you do there?
SPEAKER_00Yes, Nick, I am super passionate about coaching and leading top-performing women in their life and career journey. I definitely spoke to you candidly about that through my time studying with you. I have coached many female leaders in the workplace. However, over the last few years, I've taken my coaching abilities to the community. So this is actually a women's center in the city that I live in. And this women's center provides programs and counseling services for every phase of a woman's life. And as a volunteer there, I provide career coaching services and then obviously recently incorporated the Ikigai tribe fundamentals into that workshop.
Why Study Ikigai Beyond The Venn
SPEAKER_01Fantastic. Yeah, I was very inspired every week when we spoke. You're very savvy, you're professional, uh, you really care about your work and people, you do your research, your due diligence. And I actually pulled out the first inquiry you sent me through my website, contact form, which was August 2024. And you wrote, certification question. Hello, are these coaching courses accredited with ICF? And I replied, No, they aren't, but you're not the first person to ask. I'm looking into ICF CCE credits for my certification. Now, as you know, my course is still not accredited. I guess I have this idea, oh, I just can't be bothered with the paperwork, despite you encouraging me to do so. So it's still a possibility. But you shared with me that last year you were looking at doing some coach training. So, what attracted you to study Ikigai as a coaching methodology?
SPEAKER_00What attracted me to the program was the fact that you stated it was not the Venn diagram that Mark Wynn came up with in 2014. I mean, that really was what struck out for me, which I'm sure many people have seen that floating out there on the internet. And it was validation for me because I knew that Venn diagram was not the essence of Ikigai based on my time in Okinawa. I wanted to learn more and definitely wanted to learn from the masters who took the time to study Ikigai and how it became part of the Japanese language and the culture and the transcendence of beyond just the word itself and how that can be incorporated in the everyday living and the choices you have to make in living life. So that was the biggest reason that I was like, okay, this is resonating, which is one of the seven needs, right? Resonance is important, and I felt that frequency connection with you, Nick, and and now here I am on your podcast.
Bringing Ikigai‑9 Into Teams
SPEAKER_01I think by the first week I was thinking, uh, I've got to get Tina on this podcast, so that's gonna happen. Because you're so knowledgeable, and I almost thought, like, you don't need this, you kind of already know this stuff. I almost felt like uh I'm I'm probably benefiting more from our weekly sessions than you are from me. So it was yeah, it was really fun. I remember that the first week after we stopped, and I was thinking, oh, I'm kind of missing my conversations with Tina. So it is good to see you again. So we did spend about 10 weeks together going through the program, and you were incredibly proactive. And I think by the second week, you were already testing some of the coaching tools with your team, and one of them was the Ikigai 9. So, how did your coaches, um, so team, I think somewhat leaders uh respond to the concept of Ikigai, specifically, I guess, with the Ikigai 9.
SPEAKER_00In my global role, it is a major focus to elevate the people and culture, which basically means what does that look like as it relates to engagement? Engagement as a leader, engagement running a team, engagement as an actual team member, as an individual. And so that requires some real time spent with them and understanding their scope of work and realizing through that process that they are missing a lot of who they are, authentically who they are. And using the Ikigai 9 is a leap forward in building trust with the individual and learning what they value, which shows up on the ranking score. And I find that Ikiguai 9 tool, when used, actually really brings out a lot of awareness for the individual, awareness of seeing within those statements where they are within their core beliefs, how they're making choices, where they're lacking and maybe within those frameworks. But ultimately, it's a real shift in being for them. And it creates for me an opportunity to introduce them to the Ikigai seven needs easier because they have now seen through this lens and this awareness that this is missing or they're lacking this in their life.
Tenure Decline And Nonlinear Paths
SPEAKER_01All right. It is interesting that it often seems some people leave some of their values outside the workplace, thinking, oh, this is what my role demands of me. And so they're kind of compromising themselves. And then you mentioned this lack of engagement. So let's talk about that. Tenure length is on the decline. Um, a Google search revealed that tenure length in the US is about four years, and in Australia it's three years and four months. What are you seeing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's definitely no denial in those uh statistics because it's still very much a true statement that there are five different generations working in the global workforce today. Tenure as a factor for career longevity is fading with the newer generations. I see more and more people using their core beliefs and values, whether consciously or unconsciously, in their career journey and their decisions around that, which is why the Ikigai Tribe Coaching Program has really hit a chord with a lot of the millennial and Gen Z employees that I coach. You know, when I talk them through the seven needs, it's like a light bulb goes off and says, okay, this is why I'm struggling with my career journey, because I'm missing those things in the work that I have chosen to do. Or a lot of times they recognize that the work that they did in college and university is not the work that they're doing today. And unlike the Gen X and previous generations where it was pretty normal to go take, you know, college, university and get those things done and just jump into whatever was available. The millennial and Gen Z generation are not doing that. They are choosing to take a nonlinear path, but also not spending their entire time in one path. They want to have as many paths and many learnings, many experiences throughout their journey. And a lot of it is interestingly going more towards the entrepreneurial path than ever before.
Creator Economy And Self‑Actualization
SPEAKER_01Yes, that might be how they saw uh survive or thrive in this changing world of AI, and we'll probably touch on rolefulness, but there are many roles fading. Well, there's lots of role, but I guess there's also this creation of new roles. But I I have noticed other people say that the younger generations are wanting more than just a job and to be paid and security. They're wanting meaning, sense of purpose, more engagement. And I guess they want to, I don't know, mix it up a bit.
SPEAKER_00They want to not just mix it up, but actually at the core of what humans do best is create, be a true creator in their world, in their space, whatever that might be, especially in the digital world that they have grown up and grown into. They really do navigate towards that entrepreneurial spirit in creation. And so it'll be interesting to see how AI models either assist with that or grow that, hopefully safely. But there is definitely this need for creation in the generation that's coming up.
SPEAKER_01Well, that is interesting because we do hear the phrase the creator economy. Many young people do aspire to become creators. And we can actually tie that to Mirko Kamiya's need of self-actualization, where she basically says it's the joy of creation and using your unique imagination to create something new. So maybe it's such a possibility. There are so many ways, there are so many tools. It's become real. But maybe when you and I finished high school, we kind of were just thinking, well, I've got to get either a job, I'm going to university, and then hopefully I'll I'll get a job in the field I study. And maybe later in our careers, or for me, obviously, I began to realize, oh, I I can do my own thing if I want to. It's just I've got to take the risk. Maybe the younger generation don't see it as risk, they see it as something they almost want to do or have to do.
Parenting, Tech, And Balance
SPEAKER_00It is very interesting, Nick, because I think for my own self-reflection over the last decade, I find I have found that even talking with Gen X leaders and others that work in the human resource field, that the younger generation, they don't see things, not again, as linear as we did, because I don't even think we knew there were options. We we were just told this is the linear, this is the straight path, this is you cannot go off this path. You know, we were discouraged from parent by our parents if you wanted to be in a creative field, actually. I think a lot of people would resonate with that story. I know I wanted to do something in art, and my parents were like, well, that's not a real job, that's not going to pay for this, that, and the other. So whereas the millennial and you know, Gen Z, being in the digital space is literally creation every single day for them. And so that is a part of their DNA, it is a part of their wiring, and I do think that's why they don't do well in the corporate environment when it's just this linear path and it's restrictive and it's rigid and there's no movement. Whereas they've grown up with movement and innovation and creativity and digital creation, like YouTube has been like the backbone for that generation, both of those generations. And so they're like, don't gaslight me. I know that the world is full of creation, um, and I want to be a part of that. And that's why it's very uncomfortable for them to be in the corporate environment. I have a handful of employees that I talk to, and they're like, okay, what's next? What else can I do? How can I grow? How can I move in this direction? It is very, very much a space of. Exploration and exposure and wanting to take on more experiences. So yeah, it definitely matters.
SPEAKER_01I see it in my son. My son is a creator. He's making music for a computer game, but he's also making music for himself. And the possibility of working for a company is completely off the radar. He actually worked for Unicodle and that didn't last very long. And he's he's kind of anti-establishment, anti-corporate, anti-everything. And I've thought, well, I'll just let him pursue what he loves and you know, see what happens. So I've been very cautious not to say anything like, oh, you know, why don't you get a part-time job? Or but it's yeah, it's interesting letting go and letting people do what they want. I guess you've you've got to also hopefully take on the responsibility of uh being a growing adult, and I guess the next couple of years will be interesting. I think I've shared yeah, I've shared with you this possibility I I move back to Japan with my wife, and my son doesn't want to do that. So yeah, I have to see where he's at in a year or so. Can he create and make an income from it? I always had this fear with uh social media and AI that children would lose their creativeness because they'd be consuming so much content and they wouldn't read or draw or do these things. But luckily for him, it is a tool. He can use all this technology as a tool to express himself. So I'm I'm optimistic in some ways, yet yeah, I have some major concerns that social media, AI, there's consumers and creators, and there seem to be far more consumers than creators. Yeah, what do you think?
Meaning Over Programs In VUCA
SPEAKER_00Well, I don't disagree with your assessment. Even though I'm not a parent, I have many mates, many friends that are, and they definitely because a lot of it was the unknown for the last 25-30 years. I think you know, we didn't really know how social media and content and all of that digital content would impact the human biology. But I think that as long as parents can try to create balance where they can, and like you said, once your children are on their own, that they hopefully can continue to try to create that balance for themselves and try to make good choices. But I do find that there are many people who understand the reality of working in a digital creation type role, whether it's creating music with their Apple, Mac, you know, computers or whatnot, but they get inspiration from everything else in their life. Walking through Central Park in New York or going to the cafe in Paris and meeting up with their friends in Amsterdam. I mean, there is still a lot of people who make connection and get inspiration and then take that back to the to the content that they create. So I do think that there is still that type of balance. Uh, I also know that it's on the opposite extreme, too, right? And that is the reason why parents are and people are concerned in general as we move forward with AI, right? Because it's another form of technology that is unknown right now. And hopefully as humans, and not to spiral off into a different podcast, but essentially, you know, as we learn more about this technology and how it impacts the human biology and how it impacts us as a world, we need to definitely, those of us who can create the voice to say, is this safe? Is this good? Is this helpful for the future generations? Then hopefully we can manage through that. But I think that going back to the original question, it's really this type of change in how people view how they should conduct their lives. It's definitely for millennials in Gen Z about having no set path, but just really being exploratory and just enjoying that in their life, not thinking about, oh, I have to have so much in my bank account. They really want to enjoy the life that they are having and the memories that they're creating and the experiences.
SPEAKER_01I think you're absolutely right. My son seems to be a far deeper thinker than I certainly was at his age. And I think he values freedom. So it is an interesting time. And you wrote that the last five years, marked by a global pandemic, constant volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity, these last five years became a profound turning point. They revealed that many systems fail to address, and engagement does not come from programs alone, but from meaning. So can you expand on that? Why does meaning matter?
SPEAKER_00I believe that the world state of being in the Zuvuka environment is here to stay. Again, many people are making decisions differently about how they are impacted by it. Uh, even though, in the first few years out of COVID, the business corporate world made the working environment really flexible, as an example. And then slowly in the last two years, corporate businesses are trying to make people go back to a system of being in the office and claiming that is engagement, when that is just only one dimension of engagement. People want to fulfill their days with being with their family, their friends, doing meaningful things like a bike ride, you know, walking in nature, versus countless hours in Zoom calls or meetings, which again goes back to my point earlier why the millennials and Gen Z generation are so uncomfortable in the corporate business environment. They're like, this doesn't fulfill me on an everyday basis. And I think that's why employees are struggling today. And I think that the VUC environment is pushing more and more for people to recognize what's important to them and making those difficult choices and saying enough is enough. I don't want to work 40, 50, 60, 80 hours. I'm gonna work part-time. My counterpart, whether my spouse or my other partner, they they're gonna work a few hours, I'm gonna work a few hours, we're gonna tag team, we're gonna spend more time with the kiddos. And there's a lot more freedom of choices on making their everyday life work for them. And I definitely encourage it as a career coach, I encourage it as an HR leader, I encourage it as someone who actually coaches more women than men right now, because that is what I see from talking with women about having that flexibility and having that environment where they can combat VUCA because it just is never ending. And I think that one of the beautiful things about what came out of COVID and what came out of the pandemic is that this wasn't just isolated in like one particular country. This is worldwide. People are viewing that they are leaving the empire of the past and moving towards more of that philosophical empire, which I would love to see grow and change and evolve over the next 50, 100 years, right? That we go away from just being all this like technology, robotic, and like all just trying to make money and moving towards again this place of I'm waking up and choosing as a philosophy, as a way of being and choosing my ikigai, whatever those sources are, those needs matter and creating this utopia experience. And I know other people might say, oh, that's really optimistic and idealistic, but don't we need a little bit more of that today?
Rolefulness And Balancing Many Hats
SPEAKER_01I think so. You could say work is this unnatural environment, and it's like come to work uh cubicle, or if you're lucky, you have your own room and sit down, uh, have all this stimuli, stress, make all these uh decisions, have meetings, and it's you you probably feel like I haven't done much today yet, I'm exhausted. I've had all these meetings, I'm I'm trying to do all this, and I'm only doing it for money. Um I guess that's one argument, and that's something we accepted. It's this new generation saying, uh I don't want to do all this stuff. Whereas we probably just thought, yeah, you can't say that. So yeah, it's like this artificial world of work, especially when you have to go into work. And there are obviously pros and cons to all of that, but they're yeah, they question it, and not only that, they make decisions whether, okay, well, I'm not gonna do that, so I'll do it my way. So yeah, uh I guess we can't say these when I was a kid, this is what I did, because it's not relevant and that they don't care. So we we kind of have to, or as a father, have to give my son this freedom. But you also share that employees are struggling, not because they lack resources, but because they lack clarity around their values, beliefs, and sense of purpose. We've been touching on this or leading towards this. Core often unconscious beliefs are quietly shaping choices, disengagement, and disconnection from work itself. So this seems to speak of rolefulness or a lack thereof. And I think you really loved the concept of rolefulness when we explored that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I believe that whether again consciously or unconsciously, in the workspace, people tend to choose their work role as their identity, which is why they're miserable. And the realization of bringing Ikigai 9 tool to them and essentially walking them through the Ikigai 7 needs is really helping them realize that they have mini roles that they wear. You know, they wear mini hats, and they are choosing to be in one role more than the other because of, again, the hierarchy of needs, like in terms of like survival needs. But really, what I'm showing them, it's not the seven needs is a isn't about survival. The seven needs is about being human and that living in a more human life will bring the abundance, will bring the harmony and the wealth and all of those things. It will come because you are in a different frequency, in a different state. And I think when you can approach those different roles, not from a place of lack, but from a place of feeling fulfilled, you're going to have, you know, that deep, deep connection to your Ikigai. And through that, you will have, of course, all those other things that will come.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it was you who touched on the idea of role balance. And that seems to be something they're intuitively aware of. Whereas we did value our work role as the most sort of primary role. And obviously in Japan, even over family, work mattered more. I mean, Ken Moggy talks about this idea of you must be careful to make one role your life, and it results in this tragic loss of opportunities. So to live a roleful life requires this balance where you're not sacrificing one role for the other. You you somehow find this balance. And maybe that's what we're all looking for. Because there's nothing worse than going to work thinking you're neglecting your family, and then coming home, being with your family, but not not being present because you're thinking about work. Or, you know, whether it's with your friends.
SPEAKER_00And that has definitely been something I've seen, Nick, more and more with the women leaders that I support and coach. You know, rolefulness is something they do quite naturally. They play many roles, and most of the bigger type of roles are caretaking roles. And, you know, they have really shared with me how this coaching uh has helped them see, okay, I need to shift that. I don't want to spend all my time caretaking. I need, or even in the work, you know, role, I need to how do I switch that to balancing and being there for myself and taking care of me. And, you know, that's just as much as a role as it is being a mother or a VP. And so it's really highlighted for them how important it is to balance between those roles and not constantly be in one or two and forget who they are.
Boards, Bottom Lines, And Pushback
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's almost as if the environment or the company has to now adapt to the needs of the individual. Because if you're wanting to be a caring parent, at the same time flourish in a meaningful work role, you want to be focused on each role when I guess time or demand requires you to. And you don't want to be instead of feeling guilty, you want to be thinking, ah, things are good. I can go home tonight and have a fun evening with my family or whatever, and you can look forward to work. I remember having a conversation with uh a woman, uh, a new mum, and she was struggling with this exactly this idea of when I'm at work, I have this feeling I'm neglecting my young child, but and when I'm with my child, I want to be at work, you know, I want to be furthering my career, I want to be contributing. And it was strange, it couldn't be the other way around. Like when I'm at work, I'm enjoying work, and when I'm at home, I'm enjoying being a parent. Because there's this kind of maybe, yeah, there's this pressure to be one thing or to have one main role, or maybe only two. But yeah, we can have multiple roles, and we can have even that idea of rolefulness, have these micro roles where you're part of your community and you support a local cafe, and um, you can be present to having a role in these smaller but meaningful areas of your life. And we're we're kind of moving away from this all-or-nothing approach to everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, there's definitely some unique sides to this coin, you know, as it relates to rolefulness. I mean, we could spin off a variety of different ways, Nick. But one of the things I would come back to again is most people in the business workplace environment, they are recognizing that their role at work is not the one to focus on the most. They are recognizing more and more through hopefully coaching that I have been providing, or just other leaders who are giving them opportunity to step away and do these other things in their life and being with their family can create, you know, a break and um helping them realize what's important for them so that when they do come back into the work that they are doing, they are truly still themselves and feel balanced and feel they can do the work and not be um burnt out. Um, but I think we're gonna continue to see a lot of that push and pull. Um, corporate leaders and the boards out there, they're not getting it because they're, I'm sorry to say this. And somebody out there might, you know, say, Nick, that person, Tina, on your podcast, he doesn't know what she's talking about. But I do. These executives that sit on these boards are Gen X or older. And the way they think how business should be is still about the bottom line. They do not get how important this is, and they are not shifting fast enough. And they're gonna have less and less people who want to work for them. Ultimately.
Ikigai As Remembering Who You Are
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's like the old dog, huh? Too old and not ready to change. Well, let's talk about Ikiguai in the workplace and working well with you. I was quite hopeful because Ikigai in its various forms has been a topic of discussion or inspiration in the workspace. Obviously, the the Western model, but I was quite hopeful uh Tina will be one of my first members who will validate some of these ideas. So you write on your profile from my own lived experience and deep study of Ikigai, I came to understand how vital it is for individuals to reconnect with what truly matters to them. IGI is not a framework to be implemented, it is a way of remembering who you are. So, would you like to expand on that in this context of work and the work you've done with your coaches?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I recognized again in these last five years, even for myself, that the work that I was doing was not truly meaningful for me. I had to go through this on my own. I didn't have an Ikigai coach, but I literally had to strip away all of the stuff that I had learned over the last 15 plus years and get back to the core of who I was to understand what was valuable, what was my core beliefs, what were some of the negative patterns that were getting in the way of remembering what really was joyful for me. And when I recognized that people would come to me over the last 15 plus years as an HR practitioner, it was always because they came to me to get advice and to get coached, either indirectly or directly. And when I remembered that, and remembered that came to him naturally, and that was bringing me ikigai and the feeling of ikigai, then I knew that's what I needed to do for others was to show them that they could go back and figure out what that was that was missing and holistically go through this process. But it does take a lot of trust, Nick. I mean, it's not easy to go down this road of, you know, what are your seven needs if you don't have that real true connection and trust with that person? And um, I find that I have a superpower. Even across Zoom, I make really heart-to-heart connections with people. And they feel that they can trust me and they feel that they can reveal their vulnerability and what they're missing and what they need in their life, and to go down this journey of remember remembering who they are. And that is why I've taken it upon myself to take your program and move it forward and create that momentum for others to go through this journey because I think that is the future. Um, I'm gonna continue to fight for that philosophical empire, and then this is going to be a part of that momentum and that journey for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01Yes, you talk about holding space for people to do their inner work, and that's been a key realization for me as a coach. We're really just giving people time to pause and reflect on what matters to them so they can make better decisions. And I thought, wow, there's two ways to do this. You either encourage people to journal, which most people don't do, because the only other way you can sort of objectively think about your life and pause and question things is when someone is guiding you to do that. And your ability to connect with people, whether it's in person or through Zoom, I do think it's your superpower. And I I think that's the the skill set of a coach. You have to be so present to the needs of the person you're talking to and know when to question guide and obviously know when to say nothing. And Ikiguy, yeah, Ikiguy seems to offer this new perspective also with the sub theories we explored, which we might have to talk about on another episode, because we we haven't even touched on eBashol. But I think you're also a little Living example of someone who enjoys a lot of Ikigai. And we can obviously frame that in these needs we've been referring to. So we're referring to the work of Japan's research pioneer Miko Kamiya. So how do you incorporate her needs into your life?
SPEAKER_00It is definitely a form of mindfulness. I definitely believe it's a practice. It is no different than getting up and washing your face, brushing your teeth, getting your cup of coffee, reading the newspaper for those of us who remember doing that. And I take it from there. I add on to that while I'm doing those rituals, preparing for the day or winding down from the day, I'm asking and reflecting upon, did I fulfill those needs? At least a few of them every day. And if I can answer yes to at least one, to me, that is ikai. That is the essence of ikigai to me, is that I was able to, you know, either in action or through thought, preserve myself, or in your in the in the case of self-actualization, realize that that is what's important and I put focus on it. And for me, the biggest out of all the seven needs is to feel satisfied. Did I have a satisfying day? Did I have a satisfying conversation? Did I have satisfaction from having a meal with someone and been there for them as they expressed what was going on in their life? Today in the United States, uh, and this past weekend was Valentine's weekend, but there is something known as called Galantine's. And I was with some of my lady friends, and just being there and focusing on giving space for them, that's ikigai. And I think that connection and belonging and feeling authentic through these, you know, practices of fulfilling those seven needs is the solution, uh, I think going forward for us as humans. I think it incorporates everything that we are, it incorporates the energy that we bring to each other and to ourselves. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01I love it. It's interesting you you chose what Cameo define as the most fundamental need, this need for life satisfaction. And we do find it in the smaller things, in the conversations, in the meals, um, in enjoying our coffee, or I know you have a few cats. Even just observing your cat play and flop on the floor and relax being in the sun. Cats seem to have a lot of ikigai.
SPEAKER_00They do. They do.
SPEAKER_01So do birds. Birds, you just if I go for morning work, but it's like, oh, those these birds are switched on to their ikigai. They're tweeting and flying about, they know what to do, they're not worried about anything.
SPEAKER_00Definitely they are living with intention. And we get bogged down by a lot of other things because we are more complex as humans, but I go back to trying to simplify my everyday rituals, and those everyday rituals is based on those seven needs.
eBasho, Belonging, And Culture
SPEAKER_01I'm very happy to hear that. And like Camille, you are someone who inspires me to do better. So it's been a joy to have you on. And maybe we'll do another episode and we might touch on eBashol and whether or not e-bashol is a model to bring into the workplace where e-bashol is a place to be, which really touches on authenticity. So I'd love to have you back on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I definitely think there's a part two to this podcast, Nick. I I think there is definitely this, you know, in the work environment, there's a lot of chatter around inclusivity and bringing diversity. And that's a form of sho, uh in my opinion. And it's it's about building where people feel like they do belong and they are authentic. But eBasho is an essence of that in everyday conversation. It's the essence of how you choose the work for those employees. It's it's how you allow space for them to talk and have freedom of opinion. And we can go on and on and on about how eBasho or creating culture in the workplace can be beyond just DEI. So I would love to have that conversation. It's it's it's a heavy debate out there in the in the world of human resources on what's next, what's outside of that. And I think it's it's eBasho. I think we can peel those layers back and have that conversation.
SPEAKER_01Well, it sounds good. I shared with you I was delivering a workshop for a fairly large company. Yeah. And we touched on e-bashow and rolefulness, and we just talked about Professor Kattoll, my good friend Daiki Kattoll's concept of rolefulness, and I presented to them those three behaviors of greetings, having conversations, and expressing gratitude. And one of them said, Oh, you know, like uh five or ten years ago, our company had a no hello policy uh at work.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
No‑Hello Policies And Being Human
SPEAKER_01And there's a bit of confusion as to what it was, and one guy ended up saying, No, this is what it was. It was I would say hello to you, and instead of you saying hello back, Nick, how you going, blah, blah, blah. I would just say hello, Tina, I need that report. There'd be no conversation. And it it obviously failed.
SPEAKER_00Is that company even still around? Is the bigger question.
Gratitude And Closing Reflections
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, they're still around. I don't want to say their name, but it was like, oh, we we have to improve efficiency, so we'll just cut out any kind of human small talk. Yeah, it was interesting, like, oh, these basic behaviors of just being human, they wanted to remove, and it did not work. And I think you're right, we need to go beyond this focus on just diversity and inclusion. I guess we just want to feel human and authentic in the workplace and have that for everyone. So, yeah, let's talk about that uh next conversation. So, thank you for all that you've done for me. You've uh inspired me. You were a great listener to me at times, and you also validated a lot of these concepts in the workplace, and it was always wonderful to hear how people were responding to what you were coaching them on. So thank you, Tina, for being uh a good friend, uh a great coach, and a source of inspiration.
SPEAKER_00I can say all those words right back at you, Nick. Honestly, I learned so much from you during our 10 weeks, and I am excited to continue to learn from you and with you. Um, and that this journey is going to continue. So I'm really excited about that. Thank you so much, Nick.
SPEAKER_01Right on, sister. All right, I'll speak to you soon.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.