The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Reflections from the Japan Leadership Experience: Live from Tokyo with Katie Anderson
On episode 118 of the Ikigai Podcast, Katie Anderson and Nick Kemp reflect on a Katies's Japan Leadership Experience - a week in Japan exploring how kaizen, rolefulness, and community design create real leadership growth.
Katie and Nick share how relationships open doors, purpose fuels energy, and small rituals like greetings change how teams feel and perform.
On this episode we cover:
• connecting hearts and minds through leadership experiences
• how trust-based relationships create rare access in Japan
• kaizen at the gemba and doing things properly
• rolefulness and finding a unique, purpose-fit role
• being before doing, then doing right
• sampo yoshi, sustainability and motainai in practice
• omotenashi as mutual service, gratitude and presence
• stepping away to learn, build community and return revitalized
To reach out to Katie Anderson:
https://kbjanderson.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kbjanderson/
@KBJAnderson
To reach out to Nick Kemp:
https://ikigaitribe.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholas-kemp-author/
I consider my purpose, and this is you know, both personally and professionally, to connect the hearts and minds of people around the world so that together we can make it a better place and being able to bring people together for learning, immersion, connection, transformation. I'm a very international person. I lived in Japan, Australia, around the globe, other places. It is a role that I is deeply fulfilling and meaningful and that I get joy from. Maybe it is the role that is the essence of my ikigai or the manifestation of my ikigai.
SPEAKER_01:This is episode 118 of the Iki Guy Podcast, and this is a special one I recorded with Katie Anison last month, November of 2025, in Tokyo. This one was recorded with no preparation, on the fly and in person, just after I had the pleasure of being a guest on Katie's eighth Japan Leadership Experience. We discussed how we connected, our journey to the work we do, our Japan leadership trips, how our work is our Ikigai, and how our Ikigai often involves connecting with others. We touched on revitalization, roles, community, Kaizen embracing the essence of concepts rather than having the desire to change them, and creating the space to learn from others so that you can lead with more intention. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it. Katie Anderson. So that was in June of 2024. I had you on my podcast, episode 87.
SPEAKER_00:And then we met in Nagoya in November of 2024 when you were just finishing your first Ikigai tribe retreat, and I was leading the sixth of my Japan leadership experiences. And had you on my podcast recently, I believe episode 53 of Chain of Learning. And then we manifested a week together in Japan. Nick just joined me on the eighth cohort of my Japan leadership experience and was thrilled to have him and his co-author, Daiki Kato, come speak about rolefulness and just be part of the whole experience. And uh it was really fantastic to spend the week together, Nick. And we decided we would have a live in Tokyo, or at least recorded live in Tokyo, conversation to reflect on the week and also some of our key learnings and reflections about our times living and working in Japan and the experiences that have really just been integrated into our personal philosophy of life and leadership.
SPEAKER_01:And I I think we agreed that we would frame this as this work is our icky guy, bringing people together. I actually was inspired by you. You you sort of gave me the final push to take the risk and do my first retreat last year. So thank you. So you're my inspiration. And yeah, I've had this amazing journey over the last week learning how you do things. You have a larger group, you have more logistics. So it's amazing. I I think the thing that stands out for me is how you've got all this support from all these Japanese people through referral, through recommendations, through long-term relationships. So I think that's a theme we both have. We've managed to have these people join us on our journey and support us. So do you want to talk about that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. And uh for some context for people who don't know about Nick or me. I mean, Nick, you lived in Japan for many, many years and speak Japanese pretty well. I'd say I was very impressed this week. And currently lives in Australia. Um, I am I lived in Tokyo for almost two years in 2015 and 16 and have continued to come back. Um I'm based in California, although I lived in Australia for four years. So we have another shared connection there. But something we've both realized and deeply know through our experience here, and I think through life, is that relationships are at the core of it and connection. And especially here in Japan, uh, most things happen through deep personal connections and then making those connections and people then connecting you to others as well. And so one of the things that makes me so happy about being able to offer these Japan leadership experiences is to share the really special relationships that I've nurtured and cultivated over years and how those relationships have actually opened doors to so many more things, like the special experience at Eno Foods. I'm the only foreign, you know, person they welcome for tours, and it's just incredible. And that's because of the relationships I have with other Japanese business leaders who also were part of the grip. And I think you've had the same thing as well. And it's it's not like you can just show up in Japan and like go do something. I mean, there are some like, you know, pub plug-and-play things, but we've it's really about deep cultivated relationships.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think there's also there's obviously trust, there is this subtlety to the relationship. You have to understand how far you you can go and what what to ask for, and it's complex, but once you're you're on board, they'll do anything for you. So that's what surprised me. It's like, wow, you have so many supporters here, and it really made the trip very unique, very special, special access to these factories, uh, inner foods, which was amazing. So it really begins uh with relationship and it it seems to also evolve into a type of in some cases friendship. And so I guess for you we should touch on it. It really started with your your desire to get to know Mr. Yoshino and his work at Toyota, and then obviously led to your book. So was that the beginning? Like, and you have obviously you had no idea it would pan out to you doing uh these study trips.
SPEAKER_00:No. So I had when my family moved to Japan in 2015, I knew that I wanted to learn as much as I could about Japanese culture, about business. I come from the world of applying and practicing Kaizen and continuous improvement in organizations, the birthplace of the Toyota production system. I wanted to learn as much as I could for myself and also share that with others. And so I started writing a blog as we did. We didn't do video 10 years ago. So things have evolved and uh and share it with others. And that then grew. I also I'm a connector. And I mean, I think this is why you and I immediately um connected with each other that our our ickigai is connecting with people and having experiences and learning and sharing. It really is what lights us up, both of us up. And we can talk more about that concept of Icky guy and how that plays out in our work as well. But I didn't know that what it would lead to, but I knew that I wanted to take advantage of the of the opportunity from a deep learn, a place of learning. And so I had met Mr. Yoshino and he'd offered uh me the opportunity to go visit him in Nagoya, which I did. I also was meeting people in Tokyo, which is how I met Toshiko Kawanami, who ended up being an incredibly important uh connection for me. I led my very first one day tour while I was living in Japan still. And through that relationship, I met many, many people uh and has really built my chain of learning. And then through Mr. Yoshino as well, of course, the time spent there writing my blog became the basis and the genesis of our book, Um Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. Um I had an inkling of a possibility, but that wasn't the goal. It was to take advantage of this deep immersive learning experience. And now I have that opportunity to share that with others, and that really just gives me so much joy. So we're all both a little tired after a week. So our reflections may be um a little all over the place, but but I think that when you when you are living something that really gives you energy and purpose, that it almost doesn't matter how the the tiredness, like you get so much joy and energy. And I even feel right now I'm getting re-energized, revitalized, one might say, through our uh through just talking with you right now, I feel my energy picking up. And and so that maybe that is really what the sense of ikigai is about. It's what gives you energy and that sense of purpose and joy and meaning in life.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's what attracted me to you when I saw your videos on I think you were you were talking about the that barba system for wow, who is this woman with so much energy and and love for Japan? And it is a love for Japan, isn't it? It's like you you love to learn, love to uncover the culture. But it yeah, I think you're right, it's the relationships, it's building these relationships. And I I feel so like privileged. Yeah, we're now connected and we're probably gonna open doors for each other, or all that sort of thing. One thing I do want to touch on, I think you celebrated recently a few months ago, wasn't it 10,000 copies sold of your book?
SPEAKER_00:A little bit, yeah. A little bit a while ago.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And so that was, I guess, the second step to your journey. You connected with um Yoshino and then you you interviewed him, and so you wrote this book. Yeah, what was that like? And I guess keeping it in this context of doing your study trips.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, so that's I I feel like they're related but but separate. The the conversations with Mr. Yoshino actually kind of paralleled. I I think the start, the pro if I go back in time, my process of starting to um offer the Japan leadership experience, which I was calling Japan study trip, but of really kind of reframed because it is an experience. It's not just a trip and it's not just the week in Japan. I mean, it's it's happened all the pre-trip learning that happens and the post, you know, the the things that follow up. It's a it's a broader experience. So I think a trip was sort of a misnomer, and it's not just studying, it's really leadership and so much more. Actually, and now even framing it, it's like going on, you know, a journey to discover the essence of what it means to hold precious what it is to be human. I mean, that's really the underlying. So it's so much more than lean and continuous improvement. But anyway, I digress. Uh when I returned to the United States uh at the end of 2016, Mr. Yoshino and I kept continued our conversations. And I I have this deep love for Japan, and I wasn't ready for that experience to end. So I continued to come back and forth. And he and I were partnering well all over the globe. We were going to the Netherlands a lot, actually, and the US and giving lectures and workshops. And it was then where we thought, well, maybe we should codify some of this more concretely. His lessons from 40 years of Toyota and my experience and sort of being able to reframe and kind of synthesize those experiences and contextualize them for people happen concurrently with the opportunity to start pulling together and creating my Japan leadership experience. So I both led my first program in 2018 and started purposeful interviews with the intention of writing a book in 2018. So they had they sort of parallel process there and then uh led another trip in 2019 and had two plans for 2020, which is the same year that I published the book. We all know what happened in 2020. So that really threw a spanner in the works on so many things. Um, you know, but you know, that's we have to respond to what how life happens. So I'm really happy. Like I've been leading these programs every six months since Japan opened up again and hope to continue for for a while. It gives me so much joy. And I think the greatest value for me, in addition to like the enriched learning in Japan, is the community that's built. Um, and I mean you experienced that this week too, just the uh the purposeful coming together as a community, and that lasts for so much longer of the cohort of the international group that comes together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it it felt like uh, I guess a roaming ebasho.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I love this word ebashol, which is what does eba sho mean for those people who haven't been listening to Nick for a while?
SPEAKER_01:It has several meanings. It's uh basically it means it's a place where you can be yourself, can be a physical uh place or it can be a social niche, uh, a context. And so I think in your case in in the past week it has been this this group of people who didn't really know each other only only through the pre-ship uh pre-trip or not trip pre-pre-trip calls, and some from the same company. But yeah, we we come together and we're sharing this a journey of learning, getting to know each other, sharing meals together. But I think you built trust and community really quickly, like on the first day, and yeah, it's the inhuman experience that makes e-bash or meaningful, so it opportunity to to be yourself, to connect with others, and also have this perspective of that the future's looking bright, which I think all of your participants now have. They have um work to do, takeaways to put into action, learning they'll uh apply. And it's not just I think it's not just about the work stuff, it's also some personal development, and they also discover Japan, yeah. So it's it's a great e-basol to experience in Japan, and I was really grateful I could contribute and bring Dyke along, and I guess that's part of the e-bashol experience, what you learn, people got to know him. We all went to dinner, he had a good time. So I think we're also we have this role that it's not just um these Japanese people are benefiting us, we're benefiting them, we're giving them opportunity to meet maybe foreigners. I I don't think Daikey had um so Daike katos the co-author of my book, Rollfulness, a good friend, and I don't think he had ever experienced something like that before. So he was really happy. So thank you for having me and Daikey talk on rolefulness, but you had many um subjects. So, what was the one thing you really enjoyed uh facilitating or teaching or doing?
SPEAKER_00:That's a hard question to answer because the whole experience, but I wanted to like build on what you were just saying before, Nick, and and the word revitalize. And that's something I talk about um in the beginning about how this word revitalize is used often in Japan. And I've never heard it elsewhere in terms of why companies focus on Kaizen and continuous improvement and engaging people in empowered problem solving at all levels and to really make the work better. And it's about revitalizing industry, it's about revitalizing the company, and it's about a revitalizing human spirit. And so I really feel like there's a sense of energeticness that comes from this experience where people feel revitalized from a, from a deeply personal place and then revitalized from their leadership and and work perspective as well. So I love that word revitalize. And and yeah, so what is the what is my favorite, my favorite part? I that's a really, that's a really hard thing. There's so many, there's so many elements. Of course, it's about having uh at the very base level and having an incredible experience, um, which hands down, it is an like everyone always says it's an incredible experience, but but really the transformation that happens in guiding people through an intentional structured journey where you think you're coming for a certain reason, which is to learn about maybe business and how to create a culture of operational excellence and improvement, which you absolutely do, but it's the deeper uncovering truly of holding precious what it means to be human and what that means for yourself, um, and the and really connecting with purpose and meaning and meaningfulness, and then how do you translate that in your various roles? And like we talked about like rolefulness and whether or not it's your personal roles in life, your professional roles, um, and so much more. I think there's so much happens behind the scenes, but how do you structure an experience with intention so that people go on a journey and build upon it step by step? And so I think that sort of secret sauce or the behind the scenes is actually something that I really enjoy because it's it's the putting together of the experience and then letting it unfold and facilitating that and of course having a great time at the same time too, because what people feel they can be themselves when they uh feel community and they they have a sp a space that's being held for them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is hard to label one thing as the best experience. But I I was pretty amazed at how well run it was and lot of logistics. I mean, you're spending a lot of money on you know, bus drivers, commercial bus, and hotels, food, obviously there would be speaker fees, so you've put a lot of love, thought and it takes a lot of work, and I I think um you're right behind the scenes, I think the planning and the visualization and the kind of hope you have for what will unfold is quite exciting. So that's what I experienced with my first retreat, like planning it, and we'll do this and do that, and we'll have this speaker. So, yeah, it's it's kind of amazing how you can create this. And I mean, on my presentation on rolefulness, I talked about you as oh, you've created this unique role. So we we have like this general rolefulness, specific rolefulness where you take a common role but you you match it to your values and behaviors. But we also have this idea of unique role, which you've created, and yeah, it sort of occurred to me, wow, you've had so much impact, you've done this eight times, you've connected with so many Japanese, you've changed lives, you've inspired people. But it it seems so natural to you that you should do this. So I really think you've found a role or your role. So does it feel like that to you?
SPEAKER_00:Uh absolutely. I I I I consider my purpose, and this is you know, both personally and professionally, to connect the hearts and minds of people around the world so that together we can make it a better place. And I I feel like this role, like I feel like being able to bring people together for learning, immersion, connection. I'm in transformation. And I untraveled because I'm I'm a very international person. I lived in Japan, Australia, around the globe, other places. I uh it really is. It's my it is it is a role that I is deeply fulfilling and meaningful and that I get joy from. So maybe it is the role that is the essence of my ikigai or the manifestation of my ikigai as well. Like that, that thing that gets me up in the morning, and that it's not I really it gives me so much, so much joy and meaning. And now I have had over 140 global leaders from I don't know how many countries, at least 20 countries, so many different um languages coming together in community for learning with me on this journey. I have more next year in 2026 coming. And the relationships I've built, and uh so like in December of 2025, I'm going to the UK for a personal trip, but also bringing together different people from several different cohorts and they're gonna connect. And it really is this global chain of learning. And it yeah, it's it's not just like a phrase, it's like deeply meaningful. Um it's authentic, right? And so it is that joy. And and the same with you. And I felt this connection when we first met, and that's why I was like, Let's we let's make this happen, manifest it. And that's I mean, that's how how the world happens. So let's dive into some of the like concepts too that sort of that you maybe you had some new learnings on this experience because you haven't had as much exposure to sort of the Japanese business side from a Kaizan um operations perspective. But also we have some shared essence of learning that we we both want to bring to people because it's like deeply this balance between uh Japanese approach and um and the West and sort of the sort of the melding of the best of both.
SPEAKER_01:I think I had my biggest learning was when we went to one of the factories and they were talking about the number of Kaizen they'd done for the year to date, and it was like 400 or over 400. And I was shocked. I thought, okay, this this is Kaizen, and they might do it for the smallest thing. And then systems, there's so many systems, people know what to do, it's very clear, and I also got that distinction the clearness on their role. Yes, there's no half-assed attitude, Japanese come to work, but I mean I really love that idea that Kaiser's not made by the management or the board or whatever, it's the people at the Genva. We we heard this expression go to the Genver all the time, yeah. So that that too, I I knew that expression and that term and that practice, but to see it, and so we we saw it un unfold several times with different factory leaders.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the senior leaders, and it was clear they weren't just like coming down on the tour, right? Like the people knew them, right?
SPEAKER_01:It's yeah, and they're wearing, you know, they're not wearing a suit, they're wearing the company uniform. You couldn't just mistake them for a regular w worker. So that really gave me a perspective like, oh wow, they do Kaizen all the time, and it never ends. And it comes from kind of like the creativity of each uh employee. They see a problem, this can be fixed, they write the appropriate form, they they come up with their own solution, they test it and see if it works. That was really amazing to think, wow, uh, I've I've finally seen how it's occurs. And I think I shared that word, this idea of chantal, like do doing things properly. It's not perfection, it's just do things properly all the time, and that really stood out too. So one thing that I found kind of amusing was the number of Kaizen compared to the states. Oh yeah. So do you want to touch on that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, we had a professor talk about uh gave some some historical context, and yeah, I mean, we those of you in the states would know this inherently, the the number of there are research studies from many, many years ago, but I I imagine it's fairly the same. And it's just talked about how uh the Japanese have a greater focus on on Kaizen and continuous improvement. And then I think the number was like, you know, one per person or in organizations where they were doing this. So, but if we we were talking about different motivations and how uh levels of anxiety and complacency. So I'm definitely going to be writing, uh sharing more about some of this research that we show that we learned. And so I thought that was really fascinating in terms of how different cultures have different, you know, you want a sense of urgency. The urgency is sort of that sweet spot, right? And some cultures tend to have more of a sense of anxiety, which is maybe a more negative expression of urgency, where there's like fear and like sort of you you're paralyzed, and then there's complacency on the other hand, which is where you're just sort of, you know, everything's fine. I don't really need to contribute. And so Western cultures in the US tend to have more of a sense of complacency, which might be explains why there are fewer kaizen. And Japanese cultures tend to, and some of the Eastern cultures tend to have a little bit more of a sense of anxiety, but the sweet spot is when management and leadership is able to bring both of those sides together to create a sense of urgency and contribution. And so I I really want to emphasize it's not just yes, there are more Kaizen that happens, but it's not across all companies. There's, you know, we saw some companies that are just getting started and it still requires intentional leadership and creating the systems and structures that encourage and enable people to contribute. But but really that that desire to contribute is is really strong and and ha that desire to do do things properly and and really apply yourself is is a trait that I do admire um in the Japanese culture.
SPEAKER_01:Another key learning or observation was at some workplaces a lot of their work was fun, or they they had practice practices for fun, like the chore.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And that was at Toko Foods.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it's uh an inspirational morning or startup meeting that's not just about like reporting out on what needs to happen today, but like high energy and getting people inspired and ready to be working with energy and connected to purpose too. Like people have to say the thing that they they want to be number one at, their dreams, and like and it's like inspirational, but we you all leave feeling like wow, I'm ready to to to do something more. And so yeah, how do we how do we connect with that heart and that reviv? That's like a way of revitalizing the spirit for the day. Every day, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So how do we bring more energy into what we do?
SPEAKER_01:Because even if you went into that today experience thinking, uh, I don't want to do this. You can't you have to, and then you do get that energy. So it had a yeah, really positive impact and like it made it exciting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I want to connect that too to one of the concepts that you and Daikey talked about in terms of rolefulness, and that one of the key things of being more roleful, so it's about being actually about being more connected to how how are we actually realizing and having a good impact in each of the roles we play is about greetings and how how important a greeting is and and connecting with people and acknowledging them. And to do that with positive energy, actually, then you're giving positive energy, but it then creates positive energy for someone else. And so, how do we have more greetings? And that was actually one of the key takeaways for one of the leaders on my program because her team works remotely, and she's like, wow, we don't have time for greetings. We just kind of get into the work, we're on these Zooms. And so she's like, I'm gonna have, I'm gonna have a startup meeting that's really short, but I'm going to like, and I'm gonna do something with energy. And she's like, I'm also going to send a greeting out to my team every day, even if it's in like a teams or a Slack channel, send something, acknowledging their work and like somehow making a human connection before just getting there. So that really has got me thinking about that the ways that we connect as human beings is so important. The other thing I I wanted to talk about too, Nick, is how serious and committed leaders are here about creating their cultures. And we we heard from several different Japanese leaders too about like, wow, think cultures weren't so great. So I want like it's not like all of Japan is like Toyota and like some of them are getting started. We so some were maybe doing this for 20 years, some for just a handful of years, um, some for decades, but all came from intentionality from the leaders and their commitment to really connecting with the heart and having a long-term view and putting people before profit. And we uh there's a concept, Sampo Yoshi, and maybe you can explain that. It's the essence, I think, that really makes a lot of um Japanese companies different. I feel like we've lost some of this in many of our Western uh companies. Now it doesn't, there are a lot of great Western companies with fabulous leaders, but let's talk about what Sarampo Yoshi is.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I have actually done a podcast on this, so it was familiar to me. So sun meaning three, pole meaning uh direction, and Yoshi basically meaning good. So it's this idea of uh it's uh merchants. Um I can't remember which area, but you know, going back several hundred years, they had this belief that we should operate in a way that's obviously good for the customer, good for our business, and then good for the community. And that's how far the way Japanese think goes back. It's like we're not just doing it for profit for us to succeed. I guess that also ties into this collective mindset of Japan. There's all these ideas of you know, don't cause trouble for other people, be sensitive, be aware. But you know, Japanese would rather succeed together and make sure everyone's looked after, I guess, rather than someone wanting to make lots of money, exit a company, and and really have no concern for their staff or their community. So there is this a communal awareness or awareness of social obligation that's I think ingrained into Japanese culture, and then you have these terms like sampoyoshi that I guess uh just become words because it's a common practice. And that that's why Japan has these unique words like Ikigai or Kaizen or Ibasho, because they have these concepts that we can understand, but they haven't crystallized it to a word because they do practice it, whereas we probably don't. Uh so yeah, some polyoshi was great to learn. Um, there was there was so much learning.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and even at Ina Foods, and it's like was it Yon Poyoshi? It's like they've added one more direction, which they say for the future, so have a that long-term tree ring management view, really looking at the in the environment not just the community, but the world, like good for the environment. And I I think one of the things we had uh a sustainability expert on our our trip this this time too, and a lot of interest in how Japanese companies are looking at sustainability and it's sort of inherent. It's like they don't need like they're already doing things for the sustainable future because that's just part of what you do for being good for the the you know the the goodness in three ways. And so yeah, I thought that was interesting as well.
SPEAKER_01:And it was also one of your participants said, I've come to Japan and I've seen the SDG logo everywhere, you know, sustainable development goals. And she had no idea it was so common and something Japanese companies care about or invest time in. And it sounds like in both Australia and the States, it's not a big thing.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, I hadn't, I mean, I I only know about the SDGs because of going to places like Europe and um in Canada, actually, they had those out. So it was very, very interesting um to me. And Ian, how you know Japan has this concept of Motanai, which is regret for waste. And so a lot of the companies, like even though they're have some scrap maybe from their products. So, like, you know, with we saw some food manufacturers, they like say, well, all that scrap then goes to fertilizer to other things, so we actually have zero waste. There's you know, there's we there's waste for the actual product, but it's not true waste because it's um you know it's it's being used in other ways and there's it's it has value or it's being utilized.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was like uh zero spillage and zero waste. Yes. And if we can't use the waste in the factory, yeah, we'll use it. Find it in other ways.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I I want to keep talking so much more about this, but I want to highlight something too that in the sort of lean and continuous improvement world, uh there's always a debate is it seven wastes or eight wastes? And the senior, the chairman of a Toyota supplier got up and was talking about the seven wastes. And he even said, I know that in the West they talk about the eighth wastes, which is usually um you know the waste of human uh intellect or the human human capability. He's like, that doesn't make sense at all. The seven wastes are there to help bring light to employees the different like waste of motion, the waste of inventory. It's the purpose is for them to then learn to see. So that eighth waste actually doesn't make sense as much. And so because the purpose is around the learning aspect. So anyway, I thought that was very interesting. We always have this different debates and we, you know, three is it three s or five s? Well, we we tend to overcomplicate things in the S. Let's get back to the essence and keep it simple.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that that did make me think we maybe in the West or countries outside of Japan or just in in general, we have this desire to tweak or change things once we've just learnt it, or we we have some general idea about it. And we think, oh, this would be improved if we added another rule to it. And we, you know, we don't think, oh, I should really go deeper into these uh seven wastes or these you know three ideas. So that's something I've learned in Japan is to uh go deeper rather than change it or you know, instantly reject it or think it's crazy or unusual.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm laughing because it makes me think about your, you know, the con the concept of ikigai and how it's now we had to put a framework on it. And like now people equate Ikigai with this Venn diagram of four points, and you're you've you always are talking about like that can maybe be a helpful framework, but it actually gets away from the essence of the concept. And so we get away from the essence and that that concept of like, what is the essence of the meaning and the real purpose? And I think that that was a key theme about all the companies and leaders we talked to and visited, all talked about getting back to the essence, getting back to the purpose, the simplicity, the real, the real meaning, and even this concept of like, it's more important to be than to do. That's the essence of being overdoing. Um, and I've I've talked about this on one of my very first podcasts. It was in response to going to Eno Foods and one of my my past Japan experiences, I think it was episode even four, where like the essence is being, not just doing. And we're in a do-do-do world, and we we don't take the time to slow down, to reflect, to be. We're just very reactive. We put value on the action and not necessarily the reflection.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And then ironically, to flip that, there was also that teaching of in Japan they want to do right, but and in the West, we want to be right as in we know, like we know better.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So it's kind of a flip flip lesson, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Right, right, right. So be being is more important than doing, and then do right, don't quote unquote be right. Yeah, so but the different meanings of the same word, but yeah, I thought that was interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Once you are once you are being, yeah, you then know to do right.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Do the right thing. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's it was a joy to I mean, for me it was also like noticing the little things, you know. We're with group of 20, we're going into all these restaurants, we we're kicking off our shoes, and I was thinking, oh, like, where do we put them? And I asked one of the staff, like, oh, where do we put our shoes? And they're like, Oh no, it's okay, we'll take care of it. And of course they line them up perfectly. Then once the meal's ended, they've taken them back out and lined them up perfectly for us to put them on. And it's this level of service, and they, you know, they genuinely seem happy to do that. I don't want to be picking up someone's smelly shoes.
SPEAKER_00:A Motanashi, deep hospitality. And it it gets back to I'm here to serve you. But as we talked about, the hot it's not a one-way hospitality, and that's that's that concept of rolefulness. It's about giving and receiving, right? And so it's not just I only give, but it's about knowing how to receive and be part of that shared. We're both playing a role, but it's one based in gratitude and appreciation and acknowledgement of what we can both do to make it a positive, meaningful experience. And I I just like that's those are those little things that I love here in Japan and and really want to bring back to the essence of what people can take back. You can't read these things, you can know about it intellectually, and just and this is where the value of these experiential um, you know, programs that we put on, you know, you host your Ikigai retreat. I have the Japan leadership experience, both immersive, hands-on times to get away. And we talked about that too, the power of getting away and out of your day-to-day to really be able to learn something new and experience that. What was your experience of getting away from your day-to-day and being on this this week, Nick?
SPEAKER_01:I gotta say it's a joy to be a participant and rather rather than you know doing your role and worrying about everything. I mean, the whole experience, I was so touched when you offered me a spot and I was like, wow, you know, I can and you also gave me the opportunity to talk on rolefulness and um be part of, you know, kind of be a participant, but also support you as well, which you know I love doing. So, I mean, once on you was coming, I thought I'm gonna clear my calendar so I don't have to do any calls during the uh the time I'm here. That was important because I really wanted to, yeah, not worry about any calls. So, yeah, this space, um, you taught you this idea of gap or space, it's uh it's it's actually another psychological concept that's evolved from a general idea of gap or space. It's it's similar to Ma. Ma's more philosophical, I'd say. You told you's more kind of immediate and uh practical. So having this space where you can forget even like your familiar roles, like oh, I'm not being a husband or father, really. I I've got I can do a call and a message, but I've got this time to really be free of my I wouldn't call them uh you know burdens, but be free of my work.
SPEAKER_00:Be fully present in this experience, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, and then you that's where the magic happens because you're not I wasn't worried about this or that. I wasn't thinking I have to do this. And then yeah, I also got to connect and have these really meaningful discussions with many of your participants. And I think leaders need this because leaders tend to be extremely proactive, that they have something always going on in their mind, they're they're ambitious. And you know, if someone says, I need a break, I'm stressed, I'm sick, you know, they'll go okay to their employees, but rarely as a leader do you take time off. You kind of have this tendency to push through. So I think you providing this opportunity to say for a week you're going to put aside all these roles, you'll have a new role essentially as a student, participant, and then see what you've um studied or see a different way of doing things to what you're doing in your home country. Yeah, it must be uh we know the impact it has. Uh it's sort of life-changing, it's transformational. So, yeah, I guess I think it's essential, is what I'd say. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I know it's always try and explain why, why, you know, it the words people use are transformational, life-changing, like powerful, inspirational, action, you know, actionable. Like it really, I mean, I can say all that, but it's like already the WhatsApp channel is like, you know, coming through with those with those words. And you know, I have a lot of individuals who come on the Japan Leadership Experience. And I've I have cohorts from the same company that have come. Like I've there's one company that sent 30 people over the last six groups, another company who's investing in sending. And I've had several cohorts of three to five people on a few of the programs. And I've had some intact executive, senior executive teams from a few healthcare organizations and another company come. And the power of them being able to have so it's an incredible individual learning experience, but the power of coming together, at least as a cohort or a small, like a pair or a small group, is that you can have that shared learning experience and have that journey together so that when you go back and have that time away to really reflect. And so I've I've I'm excited for the next cohort. I have uh a few cohorts of some executive teams coming, and it's gonna be really powerful. Uh it always is. Every cohort, every cohort has a different personality because of the individuals, and they're all fantastic and great. And in going back, it gives me joy in Nikki guy. So it's been great to have some reflections. We could probably talk for hours and we have, and I'm going to one of the things that I always am a little sad at the end of each program is I love spending the time in person with people. Um, but I know this is not the last time that you and I are together. And I really encourage everyone to listen to some of our podcasts and both on the Ikigai tribe and chain of learning to go deeper into these Japanese concepts. Reach out to Nick. He has a new book coming out next year of a year of Ikigai. And then, of course, he has Ikigai Khan and then Rulefulness and then Yeah, Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn. So, and they're all they're very complimentary books, you know, talking from different perspectives about Japanese and Western concepts and how we can really take them into our well, the Japanese concepts and how we can take them into our Western, uh, our Western lives and apply the concepts to make our life and work better. So, um, and of course, you know, our friendship. Our friendship is the most important. I know, it's great. Um, and you know, I've always said one plus one equals much more than two, and I really believe that. And that's the essence of the chain of learning. Like it's our links together, um, are the strength and the connection, and and that's how we grow. So thank you for being an important part of my chain of learning, and and we can grow this together. So thank you everyone for listening. Yeah, listening to our live ref or our immediate reflections in November of 2025 here in Tokyo. And uh yeah, you can follow Nick and Iki Kai Tribe.
SPEAKER_01:Yep, I can't.
SPEAKER_00:Nabjanderson.com and chain of learning and uh yeah, and Matane.
SPEAKER_01:Matane, and just thank you. You're you're my inspiration. And I could go on and on, but I was really touched that you invited me. So good to be a friend. And yeah, good times ahead.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks everyone. Bye. Bye.