The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Understanding Academic Yarigai with Yu Kanazawa
Ever study hard and still wonder why it feels empty? We dive into academic yarigai—the lived, situational meaning that makes learning feel worth doing—and map out nine practical factors that turn study from grind to growth. With Dr. Yu Kanazawa, associate professor at Osaka University, we explore how a refined approach, adapted from the Ikigai-9 scale, unites engagement, curiosity, flow, social contribution, and purpose into a single, usable framework.
We walk through each factor—intrinsic fulfillment, curiosity and intellectual stimulation, personal growth, social contribution, engagement and flow, recognition and appreciation, overcoming challenges, real-world relevance, and a sense of purpose—and show how they interact. Rather than treating motivation as fuel you either have or lack, we focus on lived qualities you can cultivate from different starting points. Maybe you’re not enjoying a subject yet, but you see its social value; maybe you love the topic but haven’t tied it to real problems. Each factor is a gate into meaningful study, and you only need one to begin.
Yu shares insights from his study with Japanese undergraduates and explains cultural nuances like utori—mental space that makes flow possible—and how cramming cultures can crowd out deep engagement. We also unpack why recognition is more than reward; it signals that your work matters to others, which stabilizes effort. For teachers, coaches, and learners, the nine-item scale becomes a reflective tool to diagnose strengths, spot thin areas, diversify sources of meaning, and reduce burnout. Language learning shines as a case study, linking curiosity, connection, and real-world use in a way that naturally builds yarigai.
If you’re ready to trade blunt motivation hacks for a humane, research-backed path to purposeful learning, this conversation offers a clear map you can use today. Subscribe, share with someone who needs a study reset, and leave a review telling us which “gate” you’ll try first.
Yariga is not just about, okay, do you have the sense of purpose? No, sorry, you don't have Yariga. No, but there's several paths there. You enjoy that intrinsically. That's one path to approach. If you feel you're not really enjoying it, in fact, but you strongly feel the social contribution, maybe that's another path to work on. And maybe that could potentially lead to another aspect too. So thinking about it more flexibly is another way to use it.
SPEAKER_00:I guess today on the Iking Guy Podcast is Dr. Yu Kanazawa, an associate professor at the Graduate School of Humanities at the University of Osaka. Yu holds a PhD in language, communication, and culture, specializing in language education. He possesses advanced and first-class teachers' licenses in English for both junior and senior high schools, as well as a first-class teacher's license in civics. With extensive experience teaching English as a foreign language to both remedial and advanced students across secondary and tertiary levels, Yu brings a wealth of practical and academic insight to his work. His research interests span emotional philosophy, cognitive psychology, vocabulary acquisition, and information and communication technology in education. Thank you for joining me today, Yu. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01:It's indeed a pleasure for me to participate in this podcast. And also it's been nice uh seeing you in person a few months ago when you visited Japan. And also like thank you for finding my uh paper study about this academic Yarigai concept, about which I published a paper less than a year ago, and now I'm keeping on trying to develop it.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it was good to meet you in person in Osaka when uh it was extremely hot. That was not in May, and we had some beers and dinner with um your friend and fellow researcher, was it Yana?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. From JK.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, congratulations on your paper. So, as you mentioned earlier this year, you published a research paper titled Academic Yarigai Assemble, Uniting Engagement, Motivation, Enjoyment, Wellbeing, and Ikigai under Academic Yarigai. And we're going to dive into your paper on this episode. So I think it would be helpful to start with defining and comparing yarigai and ikigai. So would you like to do that?
SPEAKER_01:Sure. So uh one thing, ikigai is uh, of course, a Japanese concept broadly defined as a reason for living or a purpose of life. It kind of embodies one's sense of meaningful existence. It's quite existential concept, I would say, characterized by some positive and optimistic emotions toward life, meaningfulness, proactive, hopeful attitude toward the future, and recognition of your personal value, not just your own value, but within embedded in society as well. So that's this deep sense of ikigai, which doesn't have to be included to like making money stuff, but uh some deep sense of doing or like sense of like living. Oh, because of this, my life is fulfilled. But uh yarigai, so yari means doing actually, it's uh more situational, or the simplest definition of yarigai is situational ikigai, I would say. So uh this is a Japanese concept that can be defined as something worthwhile doing. So the focus is more doing than on living. It embodies a sense of intrinsic satisfaction, fulfillment, and even personal growth derived from activity engaging in specific meaningful tasks and roles meaningful in society as well. So the basic concepts or structure uh implications are similar or basically shared with ikigai, but it's more situational, related more to some task that you're engaged in.
SPEAKER_00:And I guess as a result, yarigai is used more commonly in conversational Japanese than ikigai. I remember living in Japan and I I'd hear the expression yarigai garu, like oh that's something worth doing, almost every week, but I rarely heard ikigai. So would would you say you use yarigai or hear yarigai probably like every week?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think definitely it's more popular or like linguistically speaking, frequent than ichigai. Ichigai feels more like some deontological situation, like older generation. Oh, this is my Ichigai sense of living. Well, it depends on people, but like seeing the face of the grandchildren, for example. But like the younger generation, teens or 20, uh people are in their 20s. What's your ichigai? Can sometimes be too existential, like deep sometimes. Well, they have enjoyed many things, but what is your ichigai? It's something difficult to answer sometimes. But yarigai is quite possible. Well, this is so interesting to do. But it's not just interesting, not just enjoying, but also meaningful, a little bit challenging, and also meaningful to yourself, society. So a lot of these things combine together. So definitely it's itigai-related concept.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe the ikigai usage comes with age and we gain this life wisdom, and then the smile of a grandchild, or the sunset is something we value more because we have this knowledge of life, and maybe we appreciate the smaller things. But it's it's very fascinating that Japanese have these unique words. What's even more interesting is people like yourself write papers on them. So earlier this year, you published a research paper titled Academic Yaligai, a symbol, uniting engagement, motivation, enjoyment, well-being, and ikigai under academic yaligai. And your paper introduces the concept of academic yaligai as a novel, comprehensive framework that integrates a central motivation and emotional constructs such as engagement, motivation flow, enjoyment and well-being in applied linguistics and educational psychology. And so you're a teacher of languages, mainly English, you're a very good speaker of English. Why did you see this need to build a framework related to language?
SPEAKER_01:That's a very good question. Actually, there are several different people with different tastes, actually, though. Some people want to introduce new ideas, other people want to try to like make it simple and simpler, like using Ockcom's laser stuff, especially in this field, like language. It's called psychology of language learning field. Many people are interested already in learner motivation or learner emotion, especially like enjoyment or maximizing enjoyment, minimizing anxiety or boredom, or different types of motivation, or some identity, or some ideal future self. So lots of concepts already out there. But one thing I notice is that uh there are a lot of intricate concepts. I know there are a lot of those uh questionnaires trying to measure different aspects, like motivation. Motivation is divided into so many different aspects, like intrinsic, extrinsic, uh integrative or instrumental, or maybe depending on different fields, it can go into like much even deeper, like self-determination related stuff. So try not doing all these small things and then study about the concept, okay, this motivation is related more to the academic success or something. That's also, of course, useful and pretty nice for our research. But at the same time, I couldn't also help to feel and think all these concepts are so divided and intricately distinct with each other, but sometimes whether they are really practical or not. Research, very nice. You can publish more like elaborate paper about theoretically go going deep into different aspects of motivation. But uh, for example, a teacher try to check like students those different levels of motivation, enjoyment, and all of other things. Maybe it will end up asking them to answer like more than 100 items of questions, then you'll find the result. But that's not always useful. So something that's handy in one concept, but integrating all these different important senses to enjoyment, flow experience, but not just enjoyment, but uh meaningfulness. Isn't there anything like that? And also I come to think, oh, this itchigai or yadi guy, it's those important things, everything is included inside. That's why I was interested in borrowing this idea, which is usually not used in language education, but in from this well-being study or those uh social well-being studies, to this language education. So that's my attempt.
SPEAKER_00:You approached this actually by referring to something called the Ikigai Nine Scale. So you created an academic Yaligai 9 scale. And actually, on episode 12 of this podcast, I did interview uh Dr. Dean Fido, who worked with uh Dr. Yasuhira Kutira to translate the Ikigai 9 and have it validated on an English-speaking population. Do you want to touch briefly on the Ikigai 9 and explain why you use that as the foundation to develop your scale?
SPEAKER_01:Sure. In order to make it a study, there should be some academically sound previous study. And for that, I found this Ikigai 9, which actually I found before COVID myself, and thought it's quite interesting. So, a lot of cases in my field, people are interested in motivation, enjoyment. But this ikigai is not only focusing your own psychological subjective feeling, of course, feeling happy is one, but also some motivation to learn new things or helping society, having enough room or space in your mind, many interests, many things you're interested in, or or my existence is important for someone, or life is rich, fulfilled, or even self-development. I want to expand or develop my possibility or like potentiality, and also even giving some positive influence on other people. So, oh, this is so good. It's not just about psychological, subjective well-being, but it's also about some social meaning. It's like embedded in society aspects. Actually, that's recent some cognitive psychology theory goes as well. Like there's this thing called like for e cognition or cognition thinking. People used to think like computer machine stuff, but uh, it's not. It's embedded in situations, social context, and also it's embodied. We have to take into account that we have our bodies, we are actively doing something, we have our agency to do things, even changing society. And also recently there's this AI stuff out there. We have tools. Our cognition is going beyond our brain ideas there. So this idea is Ichiga and I. This is just not going beyond simple enjoyment or just motivation, but meaning more about those embedded being uh ourselves, uh, and that's actively influencing society aspects. So these things must be incorporated, I thought. But like I said, ikigai can be too deep sometimes. So maybe making it more situational, Yaregai. Kind of trying like nicely blend and also like different already used concept, plus including the importance of social or agentic element inside.
SPEAKER_00:I think that makes sense to use a previous validated study, and then I guess you were refining it in the context of language learning and making it more situational. I'm not a researcher, but I imagine that would be very helpful. Let's actually touch on your study because you did do a study with university students, and I believe you interviewed or had 47 participants who were Japanese undergraduate learners of English. So, do you want to share how you conducted the study?
SPEAKER_01:Well, 74 participants. Basically asking them, so they are students learning English as a foreign language, and then asking them openly the question basically about the activities. They know Japanese, they are Japanese speakers, so they know the concept of Yadigai already, or they must be using it in their lady lives too. So I ask them to think about academic. So this is important. Of course, they may have a Yadigai with any other things, like video games, club activities, but it's specifically on study, research, or classes aspect. I kind of narrow it down uh in instruction. And what makes you feel Yadigai? I ask them. Basically, they were able to like write down their response freely. My class is basically language learning, but I said it's okay with anything. And then asking them about those activities, and also a lot of ideas out there. And also I ask them, what do you think is the important element that making your activity uh Yadigai field? So they are asked to facilitate it to think about what makes this activity Yadigai field, and then they were able to just give some answers themselves. So basically, why do you think you have Yadigai in this academic activity? I asked them, and it's some free comment style of questions. So they were able to just think about that, and then they were able to just write down as many as they like what makes an activity Yadigai involved. So basically I got the data and then kind of classified. Surprisingly, they quite well fit into those seven different aspects of ETGI9. So that's something I come to notice.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, and from your study, you identified uh nine key factors. So would you like to share what they were, and then I think later we'll get into more detail of specific examples of each.
SPEAKER_01:So basically there are nine factors. So they are both theoretically and empirically founded. I had Ikigai 9 in mind, so it's compatible with Ikigai 9 concepts. The first factor is intrinsic fulfillment. Intrinsic is actually the key. It's not extrinsic, intrinsic like from inside yourself you feel meaningfulness. Another thing is curiosity and intellectual stimulation there. And this is about something called epistemic emotions, actually. I want to know more. Like some surprise, curiosity. Well, you can actually have some confusion too. So that's another element. And the third factor is personal growth and self-development. It's kind of like more temporality here. Is you're not just you enjoy it here, but because of this, I think I become better or I'm more educated, or through doing this, I'll know more, I will grow. So that kind of self-personal growth is there. And the fourth factor, social contribution. It's not just you are happy because you enjoy it, but you're helping society. The fifth factor is engagement and flow. Engagement is actually something which is multifaceted, but maybe flow is a better idea. Flow is this famous uh Hungarian Mihai Chicksend Mihai professor. His idea like forgetting about time, absorbed into it. It's something which is not completely only cognitive, but quite deeply emotional. You are so much engaged in something. So that kind of like forgetting about time element is there. And then sixth factor is recognition and appreciation. As a result of your activity, you are acknowledged, appreciated, or sometimes praised by others. It doesn't have to always be praised, but it's kind of related to social. Your activity, your study is recognized, acknowledged, and appreciated. Seventh factor, overcoming challenges. So here, like just simply emotionally put, over challenges is actually some negative side, some stress, some difficulty. But the experience of overcoming those challenges will give you some deep sense of meaningfulness, or yagi in this sense, deep satisfaction. An eighth factor, application and real-world relevance. It's another kind of similar social idea, but what you do is useful or pragmatically helpful for the future as well. It's gonna be related to society or even some better practices. It doesn't end just in class. And the final nine factor is a sense of purpose in learning. It's a little bit overlapping here, but uh you clearly have the goals or understand the purpose. Oh, I do this. So that kind of sense of meaningfulness, sense of purpose, clear purpose, that's also another element there. So these nine factors put together, this academic Yarigai concepts is consistent.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, when I looked at all of these factors, I was thinking, wow, this is very relatable to positive psychology, personal growth, self-development, uh, flow, social contribution, intrinsic fulfillment, even maybe overcoming challenges could be related to, I guess, existential positive psychology, where we gain a stronger sense of identity and realize we're capable of more. So, yeah, would you say it's very relatable to positive psychology?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, definitely. There's this paper that I published in 2019, which is going like beyond the positive psychology. But the idea is actually positive psychology, but more about some positive psychology 2.0, I would say. I think there's another book published in 2015 or something called like second wave positive psychology, actually. We're talking about some misunderstanding of positive psychology, it was about okay, positive psychology is people thinking about okay, like happy is good or enjoyment is good only, but that would just kind of try and not look at the negative side. There's a lot of those papers out there. I dug in deep into it. There's Against Happiness or Happy Crassia or some books talking about the danger of positive psychology, especially if you mistaken it as okay, let's just aim for happiness, they just aim for enjoyment or pleasure. So, but it's not just that it's more like eudaimonic stuff, like deep existential sense of meanings. In that sense, it's not like against positive psychology, but beyond the original positive psychology and it's like in in its misunderstood form. So this can be regarded as like well-being, of course. So it's related to some more comprehensive positive psychology idea, I would say. But yeah, it's it can go a little bit more than this sometimes. It's related more to this positive psychology 2.0.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I did a diploma of positive psychology, and the three key learnings was up until fairly recently, psychology was all about solving what's wrong with people. And sort of getting them back to normal. Then yeah, positive psychology was this focus on what makes your life worth living or fulfilling or meaningful. Maybe that was misinterpreted as what makes you happy. But yeah, we obviously can't always be happy. And challenge or even hardship can result in something positive or learning or growth. So yeah, I think that's a valid point. When we say positive psychology, we're not saying you're always positive and happy. As you mentioned, it's more about your dynamic well-being, meaningful well-being, a deeper understanding of what makes your life worth living, and certainly challenges or hardship. We suffer. We're kind of born into suffering, so we have to learn how to deal with suffering and still find meaning and purpose in that. So, yeah, like Ikigai, positive psychology's kind of been misunderstood.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. I may not always use the word positive psychology, but of course, in its real form, I would say. In its not like vulgarized, misunderstood form. It really is that kind of like existential positive psychology for sure.
SPEAKER_00:So moving on, with these nine factors, you went on to create your scale with nine scale items, and obviously they relate to the nine factors. As you know, once I read your paper, I sent you a message and thought, oh wow, this is very helpful. Um, can I share it with my students or clients? Because I thought the nine items were very helpful and very useful for understanding, I think, both Yadigai and Ichigai to some degree. So, do you want to share the nine items and how they relate to each factor?
SPEAKER_01:Sure, I'm happy to. So the first item goes like this I feel personally fulfilled when I study. It's measuring intrinsic fulfillment, highlighting internal satisfaction and emotional happiness that students experience through academic enjoyment. And this is uh closely related to this Ikigai 9 item. I often feel that I'm happy. This is more about those subjective happiness feeling aspects. Definitely it's important aspects. So personally feeling fulfilled when I study. So that's the first item. And item two, I enjoy learning new things and find it intellectually stimulating. And it addresses curiosity and intellectual stimulation. And this dimension emphasizes learners' excitement and eagerness to explore new knowledge. And this is aligning with the Ikigai 9 item. I'm interested in many things actually. So this is more about some diversive curiosity, want to know more, want to explore more, and also psychologically speaking, or philosophically speaking, too. This is related to this epistemic emotions. You feel surprise, prediction error, and you want to know more. And that's the basic biological mechanism of higher order being cognition, backed up by the famous free energy principle theory. So, especially I think this is also important. Not just positive emotion, but surprise and curiosity. And item three: studying helps me grow as a person and develop my abilities, targeting personal growth and self-development factor, reflecting, of course, how academic activities foster a sense of progress and self-improvement, corresponding directly with Ikigai 9's item, I like to develop myself, emphasizing continuous self-improvement as central to academic yareka. And item number four, I believe that my academic learning can contribute to society in the future. It captures dimension of social contribution, of course, illustrating learners' recognition of the academic efforts, societal relevance, and potential impacts. And this is well correlating closely with Ikigai 9 item. I feel that I'm contributing to someone or society, of course. So you have some connection with society, reinforcing the importance of perceiving academic pursuits as meaningful and socially beneficial.
SPEAKER_00:It would have been lovely when I was a student to have this perspective when I was in high school, but I really struggled in high school. I didn't enjoy learning, and now I love learning. And all these items really resonate with me now, probably because I'm learning what I want to learn or I'm exploring my curiosities. It would be wonderful if all students kind of felt some of these items in their study of language or anything.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, anything, that's right. This can be kind of off topic, but uh maybe some teacher may just focus on like enjoyment or fulfillment. But there are different aspects there. So ikiga, yariga is not just ones, or there are social meaningfulness or acknowledgement. So these things all involve. So it's good for not just teachers but also students to know in order to make them feel regulate themselves to feel more yarigai. What is lacking? Or maybe this aspect of yariga I still don't have. So what is Yariga I can find? Maybe that that's a good way to go rather than just trying to like motivate yourself simply. I don't like it, but I need to like it. No, maybe you may like some social significance. So item number five to continue, I think. When I study, I feel deeply engaged and lose track of time. Definitely reflecting the flow, Chicksen Mihai flow theory and engagement, I would say. This item assesses the deep absorption learner's experience, potentially aligning with Ikigai 9 item. I have room in my mind. This one is like not completely corresponding, but you have enough room. In order to feel those deep sense of flow, you must have enough resources or some enough cognitive reservoir left that you can utilize to explore more. So, in that sense, you have enough room in your mind. In Japanese, it's called like Utori, I would say, in mind. People sometimes criticize U Tori as Utori education, actually, though. I'm an educational background, so I can say about Utori education is like Japan, like Asia. People tend to just focus a lot on like cramming too many knowledges in high school. There is some re educational reformation and having people should have more room in their mind, like UTORY, like more time. And also instead of cramming too much, but they need some time to think deeper or choose what they want to learn more or something. So it kind of echoes that too. So if there are too many things to study, maybe they cannot feel flow sometimes. Especially with proper amount and also proper like space in mind, they can just forget about time and enjoy what they want to study.
SPEAKER_00:I remember reading about Utory generation, and there was this this intention to give them less homework, and it failed because they didn't change the testing system. So at the end of this school year, all these students were failing. And then I think they're in their 30s now, maybe in their mid to late 30s, this generation of Japanese, and often if they go for job interviews or something, and then their potential employer realizes they were part of that generation, there's some prejudice, and they think, well, oh, you were part of that lazy generation who didn't study hard enough. Yeah, have you heard stories like that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, actually, like I'm one of the oldest tutorial generation. I remember I used to like six days a week of studying, got five days. So Saturday classes, and also the textbook got a bit thing, which I didn't like myself actually, though. But I like this spirit. How it can really actualize or operationalize is another question for sure, though. But of course, if they have students, sometimes if students have more room or space or leisure, they may study, but they may also less enjoy academic stuff. So that's a difficult point for sure. But uh but I I talk with like people, students from not just from Japan, but kind of similar situation, for example, like China, Aquarius to fierce interest examination, and students are cramming a lot of knowledge stuff out there. So like some students will be successful, but that's also kind of diminishing creativity or critical thinking or applicability of the knowledge for the real life. So the aim for learning is test. It has it will be. So say so how it can change is a very difficult question. I think we still don't have the answer, but I like the spirit, I would say. Of course, some people may have those flow experiences with fierce cramming. But usually, my my observation, if they are too much imposed on so many things to study, they may just be overwhelmed by those things and they no longer have enough space, room in mind. They need some room, but maybe some facilitation to focus on learning. I know some students just want to spend more time reading manga or video games, which is not always bad, but you know, of course if you do that too much, they may end up not studying. Well, just tapping into the really difficult question that we still don't have an answer to that. Yutori has its own good side, I would say. I wouldn't say it's everything is good, but uh the spirit is good. Okay. Item six I feel motivated when my academic efforts are recognized by teachers, peers, or family. Assessing the recognition and appreciation aspects, highlighting the motivational significance of External acknowledgement and it corresponding to Ikigai 9 item. I think that my existence is needed by something or someone. So how external validation reinforces learner's sense of purpose. So it's kind of contrastive to the first item. It's like intrinsic fulfillment. You enjoy it because that's meaningful. You feel meaningful. But there's some nice balance needed, like intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation. People usually say intrinsic is important. Extrinsic is like some candy or whipped situations, so that's not very good, they say. But also, if you you just enjoy it, but it's not acknowledged by anyone. Well, there's some genius doing those unacknowledged study, and then 100 years later it will be I appreciate it. These things happen, but usually you should get some proper acknowledgement about some uh evaluation. So there are some aspects of external validation needed. So that's uh echoed uh here in this item. Item seven, I feel a sense of accomplishment when I overcome difficult academic challenges. This is about overcoming challenges, indefinitely, literally, for this factor. And also this reflects the satisfaction derived from the successfully navigating academic difficulties. Kind of mirroring Ikigainai item, my life is mentally rich and fulfilled. There's this uh concept of psychological richness proposed. There's happiness of life or meaningfulness of life, but also there's one more thing, like richness of life, proposed 10 years ago. This richness is not just about you have a meaning, but uh you have a positive feeling. But there's this third different dimension. Like talking more about the rich experience, more emotional intensity. It doesn't have to be positive. Sometimes some negative emotion can also be intensified too, but as a result, reflecting on everything, this was so meaningful, and then like this is so rich, so kind of sometimes dramatic, but it doesn't have to be completely dramatic, though. So this rich uh experience is also echoed here, and also that's this positive psychology 2.0 stuff. Positive emotion, not just positive emotion, some kind of trouble, challenges, confusion, overcoming difficulties in a long run, leading to very eudaimonic experience. It was tough, but so nice to remember. Item 8 is I can see how my academic knowledge can be applied in real life situations, emphasizing the application to real world relevance, assessing learners' perception of the practical applicability of academic learning, it aligning with a guy nine item. I believe that I have some impact on someone. Real world relevance, highlighting the real world applicability, enhancing the perceived value of academic activities. So here is of course related to social, but it's a bit more about agency, I would say. You are active agency, the agentic thinking. You are studying not just to absorb knowledge like a sponge, but also to use it to sometimes even like change the society into a better world or better place. So it's uh some pragmatic spirit in here as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that one stood out for me as that's Yarigai, like where's the relevance? How can we use it in the real world? It's not just something we might talk about or discuss, it's like this application. So I thought that's a strong element for Yarigai.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, definitely. And also for like well-being as well. So it's kind of a mixture of all behavioral, cognitive, and emotional aspects. Well, another thing is like, for example, engagement and motivation. People often divide into cognitive, emotional, and behavioral, and then like separately see things. But for example, this aspect is it's everything. So it's partly behavioral, backed up by emotional and cognition. So this thing is maybe one good example showcasing how these concepts cannot really be dissected to my psychological concepts here. So this is kind of holistic in itself. Next one is the final item. Item nine is I understand how my academic studies align with my long-term life goals. Majoring learners sense of purpose in learning and goal alignment, potentially corresponding with Ikigai 9's item. I'd like to learn something new or start something. Suggesting how clearly articulated academic goals connect meaningfully with broader life ambitions. So here, like maybe they start something, like academic, especially useful for students. Of course, they can think about some future goal that has nothing to do with academic pursuit, but ideally, they're studying a university, for example, so they should connect it, their long-term life goal, with those academic contents there, and that'll make it deep sense. So yaddy dye.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, whenever I say sense of purpose now, I tend to think of the work of Mirko Kamiya, and she wrote extensively on this in her book. So it's not just purpose, it's this sense or feeling of purpose that what I'm doing is worthwhile or might be worthwhile in my future, something I can use, and it's not just something I'm learning for the sake of learning. I think in the West there's also this mistake to equate Ikigai just to purpose. And as we've explored, it's a multifaceted, multidimensional concept with all these factors of intrinsic fulfillment, you know, curiosity, growth, uh, social contribution, engagement and flow, recognition and appreciation, overcoming challenges, and real-world relevance and application, and then yeah, a sense of purpose is part of the puzzle. Would you say anyone stands out stronger than others, or is it very subjective to the individual?
SPEAKER_01:So actually that might relate to my future study. This scale is actually some trait yarigai, I would say. How much you have yarigai in academic study field in general. And also this is a self-report thing. One limitation of self-report thing is some people who is quite eager, motivated, like more than what actually he or she is, may report, yes, I have a high sense of meaningfulness or something. Especially in Asian context or Japanese context, some people who are feeling those sense of enjoyment but kind of modest. Well, like maybe my score is not that high. So there's some of those subjective differences out there. So whether just comparing the average of these scores to what extent it is really meaningful is something we have to carefully check. But balancing these different aspects, I mean not just one, it's possible that some people have very strong yada, but maybe one or two items, quite a low score sometimes, right? So if that was the case, like what's happening to that is nice to of course there are some students, like I said, like a student who couldn't study for some reason, but now finally he or she can come to school and can study. So these cases, Yadiga is so high in general, so motivated. Of course, that's kind of an extreme case. Like if you look closely, maybe like, oh, this person has a pretty big sense of purpose, but actually there's not enough social contribution element. So you might notice that. In other words, that can be like not always be sustainable. Somebody like burnout, I would say. If someone was so motivated to study, a lot to be art guy, but some kind of burning out may happen. So in that sense, if you look into it, for example, oh, this person has a so big sense of purpose or some intrinsic motivation, intrinsic enjoyment, but maybe completely lacked some social contribution element to stuff. So maybe in that case, I mean that could be bolstered or supported later. It could also be used to diagnose highly motivated people, how that person is highly motivated or actually, or even people with not motivation, but in which aspect especially they have especially low, especially high motivation. It's quite case by case, I would say. Model cases will be there, but that can be even if you look closely, quite complex and dynamic.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it is interesting because I guess if you took the scale, if our listeners took the scale and thought, okay, there's a subject I'm not really interested in, or I don't like learning, but I have to, maybe they can use this scale to find a way to actually find meaning or purpose or enjoy at least the process of learning. A usage of the scales, like, well, I I I'm not super passionate about this subject, but maybe learning this knowledge, I believe it will help me in the future with social contribution. Or maybe studying this subject's actually a challenge. So it ties to overcoming challenges. And it might give the student more meaning, purpose, and might reset their mind on approaching study.
SPEAKER_01:There are several paths to Yariga, in other words, I think. Yarigay is not just about, okay, do you have the sense of purpose? No, sorry, you don't have Yariga. No, but there's several paths there. You enjoy that intrinsically. That's one path to approach. If you feel you're not really enjoying it, in fact, but you strongly feel the social contribution, maybe that's another path to work on. And maybe that could potentially lead to another aspect too. So thinking about it more flexibly is another way to use it. I think there are like maybe potentially like nine different aspects to approach, which you don't have to excel at everything from the beginning, but maybe like something that you can start better, focus on better, for a better yarigai. And then you can expand it more to others.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, actually, to quote you, academic yarigai fills a critical gap by emphasizing the lived experiential quality of academic tasks, which traditional motivational theories often inadequately address. So I think that's what we're talking about. It does give people a chance to find a way to do these academic tasks with lived experience, rather than it being just a form of motivation that makes one study.
SPEAKER_01:I think you called it from my motivation and academic yaragai section. Especially motivations, there are a lot of theories out there actually, which is sometimes the validity of the construct is criticized. Motivation. Motivation is kind of metaphorically explained as a kind of some energy, like all of some gasoline or some fuel to make you be more engaged and involved in something. Whether that metaphor is really valid or not is actually debatable. Actually, there's this book Naming the Mind published in 1990 or something. This construct of motivation is actually quite new. So there's those energy metaphor coming out. But uh, before it was like will or it was conceptualized quite differently. So actually, this motivation concept itself is so new, and we don't know whether this is a natural kind. I didn't even publish a paper about the fall of motivation, basically criticizing that. So potentially maybe emotion can explain better. Emotion is a kind of natural kind, but maybe motivation is maybe not always so so in that sense, of course. Uh this motivational theory is there are a lot of intricate studies. Like, for example, in in my field, this famous theory goes like ideal self, ought to self. So I have this, I want to be like this vision that's giving me some motivation. Or I don't want to be, but I ought to be ought to self. Well, they have their own important implications and meaningfulness, but whether they really capture this emotional dynamics, not just about I have this goal, so I want to do that kind of thing, but more enjoyment, everything organically put together. Maybe that you need to like consult different emotion concepts and theories, something somehow organically incorporating it into sixing nine factors. That kind of tap into uh even emotions too. For example, this uh questionnaire uh is only nine items, usually, which is so a lot of those nice validated items, uh dozens of items sometimes. But something that may happen is culturally that may be different. Like there is this enjoyment scale in like foreign language learning, enjoyment scale is a quite popular and famous one there. But then through a lot of different question items trying to measure the student's enjoyability, but sometimes that includes like I laugh a lot in class, or we have some internal joke in class or something. But for example, in Asian context, students really enjoying learning, but do they laugh a lot or do they like a joke with each other? Maybe not not always. Statistically really validated, actually, the factor analysis and all reliability checking are done actually. But there's this cultural difference out there, I would say. Of course, trying to like more carefully grasp the idea of enjoyment itself has some potential limitation, I would say. For example, like some quiet students really having a sense of learning, enjoying it, but not really laughing or socializing or enjoying. Maybe they'll score for those parts can be lower. So kind of trying to like incorporate a lot of items has its own limitations. Statistically, it's really important, especially like diagnosing or like utilizing it as a guideline. So this academic yarigai scale, nine items, is not only about those scale to major students' level of yarigai, but kind of like nine important aspects for them or students or teachers to think about. So in that case, maybe it's also possible to increase items more and more, like for example, one factor, like five items or something, but that's like quite long list of survey. But of course, to start with something as succinct like this, and then basically one factor, one statement, and whether they can reflect on whether they have this already successfully accomplished or not, is maybe more useful, like qualitative psychologically rather than quantitative psychologically speaking.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I remember reading one of the reasons why the Ikigai 9 scale was created was these researchers realized, the original authors of the paper realized we're using all these foreign scales to try and measure ikigai, like the meaning in life scale, the purpose in life scale, when we should really be measuring Ikigai in the context of Japanese culture. So I think that's part of the reason why they decided to make the Ikigai 9 scale. And then one thing I've noticed in many scales, there's usually some form of control question where there's a sort of a negative statement, but I noticed that's not the case with Ikigai 9. And I also know that the people who learn it find it very helpful for engaging in discussions, coaching conversations. And I'm kind of amazed that obviously in daily life we don't talk about these subjects or themes because we're busy with life, and most of the time we complain about things. The scale, obviously, the EKI9 and now your scale gives us this opportunity to discuss obviously learning or life with these different angles, contribution or growth, or these inner states. Do I have utility? Do I have this mental space? Is my life fulfilled? I guess one question I would ask is what's your advice for teachers or coaches with this scale to help their clients or their students?
SPEAKER_01:That's a really good question, actually. That's kind of like uh more answering, not as a psychologist, but as some educator myself. Like I said, so well, like one further study for this paper is actually this academic array nine scale. Ideally, there should be more validation, reliability checking. But that could also mean more fact analysis, and maybe there should be more items, and it's gonna be kind of longer, more complex, I would say. Which is psychologically good, but something I think is good is already in its form, like this nine items, like not using it for statistics or quantitative study, but qualitatively. So think about them like nine important elements of successful Yari guy or academic yarigai. So we don't have to use it for this Likerscale one to five questions. Whether do I have, or does the student or does the client have intrinsic fulfillment, curiosity, intellectual stimulation, personal growth, self-development? So they're like nine gates or like nine approaches to more organic Yariga. This Yarigai is quite a holistic concept. Of course, there are a lot of ways to more dissect psychological sense of meaningfulness into more like diverse factors. But this Yarigai like organically trying to incorporate these things, everything. So these are not consisting of nine pieces. It's not a cake, right? It's not like nine pieces put together one whole cake, but it's more like nine entrance, I would say, like nine gates, I would say. And then inside is quite well like mingled together. So like that's statistically speaking, so they are kind of overlapping, or like it's maybe some superfluous ideas or there's limitation that can be scientifically speaking, but so like which gate you start with, for example, you really absorb and you forget about time flow. I mean, that's maybe a nice way to go into it. Or maybe you have some challenges, maybe trying to start with the overcoming challenges and trying to couple it with some other personal growth element or fulfillment growth element, and then like trying to like mix it well. So these things, these areas more about art than science. But in order to do art too, there should be some good conceptual guidance, I would say. So these nine factors, I believe, can work as pretty good coaching or teaching some ideas. Okay, how can I make or help this client or student more fulfilled, or like utilizing this concept Yarika field? Oh, maybe this person is weak in this factor, so we should work more, or this student already having some strong something. Well, this factor is quite strong, so maybe helping, you know, utilizing it as a guiding light, and then like other, but trying to supplement it with other factors or something. And then that will be, I think, will relate to some sustainability as well. Of course, it's like sustainability is kind of quite recent, like buzzword in many fields, but academic sustainability, like uh avoiding burnout, I would say. So maybe if you are somebody really strong in Yarigai, if that is supported only by one or two factors, if that factor kind of no longer is so powerful, maybe the person may experience some burning out. So in that sense, while you have enough power or room in mind, trying to like expand your Yarigai network and somehow, for example, really enjoying, but not just enjoying, but trying to helping it, connecting it more to social contribution or more challenging overcoming challenges. And after that, for example, even when the students or the person's intrinsic enjoyment fulfillment element decreased for some reason, if they have other important factors, they can just keep on their Yari guy involved endeavor uh more sustainably. So in that way too, this can be used. And also like these things are relatively intuitive, I believe. So how to interpret so it can be not just Yari academic, I would say. I this is a situation for like university students. I made it academic, but well, it can be depending on some professional situations or whatever, or maybe this adjective academic could be replaced with some other things, like depending on who the client is or the students are. So I believe this can be used like that, to like as a diagnosis, conceptual tools for holistic and sustainable area field uh endeavor, and that definitely leads to well-being or like well-being of their lives. Like I often use this, not a metaphor, but some people seriously study, but after 5 p.m. or something, they just forget about okay, now it's about the time to enjoy, which is nice. But ideally, like I'm a kind of person who try to put life into what I do, like put life into what I study. So not just okay, it's time to study, okay, okay, it's time to just relax, completely separated. That's well, that's nice. Uh, there's no criticism, but for a life to be more holistic, I would say, what you do, what you love, what you feel yariga involved, that will make it pretty like so it's not clear separation of leisure and work. And that can be one of the ways approaches to well-being, and trying to incorporate as many as an also uh yarigae and also as deeply as possible will make your work, job, study, um, more part of your like well-being itself, too. So that's kind of my vision.
SPEAKER_00:I think the scale also highlights these are the benefits of learning. These are the benefits of studying. So if you study, there's growth and development. Um, you can reach states of flow. Uh you can learn something and then maybe apply it and have some real-world uh relevance or usage. You might even feel a sense of purpose as you study intellectual stimulation. And I think the more we learn, it's a good thing. You've obviously spent a lot of time learning English. Was learning English a source of ikiguy or yadigai for you? You're, you know, a fluent speaker, you've written papers in English, so you're very proficient. Uh thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Actually, English has been a subject that I'm good at, actually. But uh of course, but language it itself, well, I'm interested in like learning other languages too, actually. But language is definitely a tool, not just a tool, but uh through language, you can expand your horizon. Of course, pragmatically, you can communicate with people around the world, different point of view, and also you can learn different culture, different ways of thinking, just by even just by learning it. And also you come to notice deeply in your own language as well, because you know, sometimes that languages have a lot of dynamic influence, oh for example, like English, or like all Chinese or what other languages. Like this idea is quite similar, but this is different. So you can kind of compare it in yourself, and that's a good cognitive like training user too. And even there's some studies or neuroscience studies suggesting for like bilingual modeling of people having some uh less less likely to have dementia or something. So maybe cognitively speaking too, like making your brain quite flexible, right? And also this so in other words, language learning itself is quite uh possibly a place for Yaregai to it's not just you enjoy learning new things, you're curious, but also social relevance because you know you can communicate with people or read some things that's not written in your mother tongue and stuff, and and recognize, appreciate because you know you can talk with people, and of course, challenges involved and real-world relevance is really relevant because language is used. People are there. So a sense of purpose, you know, by learning is meaningful. So, in that sense, of course, uh topic of language learning or foreign language is that definitely one of the topics that's related to this academic Yari guy, relevant to fill with a lot of those epistemic emotions or surprise.
SPEAKER_00:Ikigai brought us together. We basically started to communicate, we've met in person, and now we've had this conversation all because of starting from one word. So it's quite powerful. Even one word can change your life. It's ikingai's obviously changed my life. Yeah, yeah. So I I do recommend having an interest in other languages and and learning it. And maybe with your scale, people can be inspired to approach it with uh Yarigai, uh, this desire to do it for all these benefits. So I think we've talked for over an hour and 20 minutes. So thank you for sharing your knowledge, for joining me today. It was great to meet you. I look forward to more of your future papers that uh hopefully you'll publish in English, so it'll be easy for me to read them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, basically plan to do that. And also, yeah, my progress uh is an ongoing project, so I'm even expanding more and more into like situational Yarigai, like like Yari guy. This Yarigai is like more about treat Yarigai, but more about each task. Task Yarigai. That's something I'm also working on too. So yeah, there will be more papers and presentations and other stuff. So usually I put those things on my social media and other things. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome. I'll look forward to that. Maybe we'll do another podcast when you've written another paper. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you for joining me today.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's my pleasure and uh so nice another pretty good, I would say, Yarigai moment. Communicating with people and yeah, nice discussion. That's definitely an Yarigai. Yarigai atta name. Yarigai, yeah. Thank you. Thank you.