The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Understanding Psychological Flexibility: The Key to Emotional Resilience with Ross White
Ever feel like your mind is running the show—and not in a good way? We sat down with clinical psychologist and author Ross White to unpack psychological flexibility, a practical skill that helps you have difficult thoughts and feelings while still taking the actions that matter. Instead of fighting your inner weather, Ross shows how to bend like a tree: anchored in the moment, willing to feel, and empowered by values and purpose.
Ross breaks down his AWE framework—Anchored, Willing, Empowered—and connects it to a vivid tree metaphor: roots for presence, a trunk that sways with emotion, and a crown that gathers energy for growth. We explore TEAM WIN (Treat Emotions As Messengers, What’s Important Now) so fear, anger, and sadness become signals rather than stop signs. From elite sport to everyday life, Ross explains how to navigate the three motivational modes—get, threat, and reset—so ambition doesn’t slide into burnout and recovery becomes a strategic advantage.
You’ll learn how wonder, gratitude, and compassion act as reset tools, why journaling and mindfulness build meta‑awareness, and how two simple questions can calibrate your effort: Which mode am I in right now, and which AWE skill helps me stay or switch? Ross also offers a timely reframe on meaning: purpose isn’t found, it’s formed. By experimenting with small, values‑based moves, you avoid the arrival fallacy and let multiple purposes evolve over time. Strong intention, light attachment becomes the mantra for sustainable growth.
If you’re ready to branch toward what matters—without breaking—tune in and take notes. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who’s in “always on” mode, and leave a quick review to tell us your favorite reset ritual.
Sometimes it can be easier to be more compassionate to others than it might be to be compassionate to ourselves. And there are exercises, techniques that we can use to develop that self-compassion muscle. Doesn't come easy because we have all kinds of fears that show up around self-compassion. But I see self-compassion as this very active, courageous willingness to take care of oneself.
SPEAKER_00:My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Ross White, an award-winning clinical psychologist who specializes in supporting the mental health and well-being of adults working in high-performance environments, including elite-level athletes in rugby, football, athletics, and tennis. He is the author of The Tree That Bends: How a Flexible Mind Can Help You Thrive. Ross is a professor of clinical psychology at the Queen's University Belfast and is the founding director of Strive to Thrive, a clinical psychology training and consultancy organization that helps individuals and organizations to thrive. Welcome to the podcast, Ross.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for the invite, Nick. I'm excited to be here.
SPEAKER_00:Likewise. So as I mentioned to you earlier, I saw a video of you on Instagram, and Honor Wim decided to reach out to you. And I thought what you were sharing really resonated with me. So I thought we would have an interesting and insightful conversation. So thanks again for being open to that idea.
SPEAKER_01:Pleasure, and I hope I don't disappoint.
SPEAKER_00:I'm sure you won't. So in one of your videos, you shared that you were taking a moment to breathe in, that you have thoughts as you were breathing in, and that you were then breathe out, and those thoughts don't have you. And for the most part, our thoughts control our life, our attitude, our actions, and if they go unchecked, they can result in false beliefs, even pain. So our thoughts do get the better of us. How can we have our thoughts not have us?
SPEAKER_01:A great question. That's the difference, I suppose, between living your day with your thoughts, carrying those thoughts with you and drawing on them if and when it's helpful to do so, and indeed you choose to do so, versus living life through your thoughts and the extent to which some of the stories that our minds can generate can influence and color the way we experience our day-to-day lives and the choices that we might make. And I have a great interest in this concept called psychological flexibility, and that can be contrasted with psychological inflexibility, where we really start to become quite restricted and influenced by particular themes and stories that have developed in our minds over time. So psychological flexibility is about helping people to have difficult thoughts and feelings and still commit to making choices that may actually move them towards discomfort, but also bring vitality and fulfillment in life.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. We will definitely dive into psychological flexibility. I think it relates to the work I do. So we'll move to thoughts to emotions, because you had another video on emotions using an acronym called TEAM WIN. Would you like to touch on that?
SPEAKER_01:So I have a great interest in the messaging that emotions might actually carry within them. And when we experience difficult or challenging emotions, the urge can be to try to suppress, avoid, or indeed get rid of those challenging and difficult emotions. Perhaps it might be fear or sadness or anger or frustration. And I'm interested in the function that those emotions might actually be serving. And sometimes in the rush to get rid or avoid emotions, we might actually be missing out on the important function that those emotions serve. So team stands for treat emotions as messengers. Try to understand what it is that's perhaps important enough for you to be experiencing that strength of emotional reaction. And then what's important now is about, well, now you're recognizing that you're experiencing the emotion and that you can hold that emotion in this moment. How do you choose to move forward? What's important in terms of the next step that you want to take? And with that, I think it's helpful to be oriented towards our values. How is it we want to be in the world? What qualities do we want to shine through and how we are with ourselves and how we are with other people? And of course, what's important now also speaks to a sense of purpose. So, what is it in terms of our North Star or guiding lights that we want to be committed to staying true to as we take the next choices?
SPEAKER_00:I think it really highlights the importance of presence and being aware. And maybe when we have that awareness, we can question our thoughts or our emotions, and think, oh, why am I so anxious at the moment? So, yeah, would presence play a lot in the work that you do?
SPEAKER_01:It does. Yeah. Psychological flexibility, as I conceptualize it, I'm really drawing and I've been influenced by an approach called acceptance and commitment therapy, or acceptance and commitment training. Act in short. Psychological flexibility is really about three core elements that I write about in the tree that bends. And I actually draw on the anatomy of a tree to help readers to remember these three elements of psychological flexibility. So maybe I can start by just saying a little about that uh proverb, the Tanzanian proverb.
SPEAKER_00:So before we dive into that, can I also touch on one more video you made? And this actually relates to the tree metaphor, but you have this wonderful video on choices. And that we're either branching towards or branching away from acting effectively. And I think this obviously ties into either our thoughts and emotions. I'm sure this obviously all relates to psychological flexibility and what you're going into with the tree that bends. But yeah, I thought I'd start with these videos first, then dive deeper into your work. But I love that expression, oh, like, yeah, we're branching either towards or away. So yeah, would you like to briefly touch on that and then we'll go uh much deeper?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so broadly speaking, in the choices that we make, and we make lots of choices through our day, our choices can be influenced in one of two directions. And one direction might be about being motivated to choose to move towards acting in line with our values, and that could be about doing things compassionately, assertively, wisely, sympathetically. We can choose to move towards those qualities of action in the choices that we make. And that's that idea of acting effectively that you mentioned. So we can be branching towards those values and indeed a sense of purpose, which I'm sure we'll come to as well. Or we can end up branching away, away from potential discomfort or distress or doubt or fear that could arise as we maybe put ourselves forward into an unfamiliar or novel situation. And if we are branching away from the discomfort and that sense of unease that can arise as we try something new or different, or we put ourselves out there, we can invariably take ourselves away from our sense of purpose, away from acting effectively, and with that away from perhaps being true to our personal values. So, yes, that's that idea of either branching towards versus branching away in the choices that we make.
SPEAKER_00:I'm really big on value alignment. I think we also know with our feelings or our intuition, and then our mind seems to get involved and tell us otherwise. So we do live each day with all these choices, these emotions, thoughts. And I guess we have our good days, our bad days, our challenging days. And this would lead to this idea that you write about being helpful, and that's psychological flexibility. So would you like to sort of briefly define that and touch on why that's important? And then obviously that relates to the title of your book, which is a lovely title, The Tree That Bends.
SPEAKER_01:So psychological flexibility can be defined as the ability to have difficult thoughts and feelings and either maintain our behavior or indeed change our behavior in service of connecting with our personal values and our sense of purpose. So it's this idea of having difficult thoughts and feelings and still committing to doing what matters. That's ultimately psychological flexibility. So a number of years ago, I was working in sub-Saharan Africa and I heard a Tanzanian proverb, the wind does not break the tree that bends. And I just thought, wow, in terms of a powerful visual metaphor and uh a metaphor from nature, and I think nature can be a great teacher. We have this idea of this tree that can bend in the wind and persists and endures in spite of the stresses and strains that it experiences. And that visual metaphor stayed with me. And I thought it captured this notion of psychological flexibility very well. And I had been working for a number of years in high-performance environments, and I had been struck by how people can really be relentlessly relentless. Now being relentless and tenacious are certainly qualities that can help you achieve, but they can also lead to burnout. And I just wanted to write a book about the role that psychological flexibility can play in helping people to both take care of themselves and take care of business. So the tree that bends is about helping people to both perform well and feel well. These two things don't need to be in opposition. So I use the tree metaphor and the anatomy of the tree to represent three important components of psychological flexibility. So the roots of the tree represent the tree's ability to remain anchored in its location, and we need to be anchored in the here and now in which our life is unfolding, as opposed to doing too much mental time travel to the past or to the future and missing out on the here and now. So we need to be anchored. The trunk of the tree needs to be willing to sway in the wind to absorb its energy. We need to be willing to recognize that our minds can be the story-generating machine and willing to turn towards rather than away from the emotions that show up with those stories. And finally, there's the crown of the tree, which represents the tree's capacity to get the power it needs to grow and develop. So the crown of the tree is the branches and the leaves where photosynthesis happens. It captures the sun's energy, it's energized by that energy, and it produces the fuel. We too need to be empowered, empowered by our sense of purpose, our personal values, and take pragmatic action in line with our purpose and our personal values. So anchored, willing, empowered are the three elements of psychological flexibility. And they spell out the acronym Awe just so that people can remember it. Anchored, willing, and empowered.
SPEAKER_00:Beautiful metaphor because some trees do capture awe or put you in a state of awe. And also to quote from your book imagine being grounded like a tree with deep roots, yet empowered to respond flexibly to life's challenges. So he has to have this foundation of strength, but we can sway and continue to grow. And obviously, also we can either bear fruit or leaves or even be a place of refuge for people or birds or stuff like that, or maybe koalas in Australia. So I think it's very helpful this metaphor. So the roots is about being anchored, the trunk, this willingness to sway, move, adapt, and with the crown uh empowered. Uh, you also use the metaphor of a tree to talk about balancing or the balancing of life and thriving. So do you want to go into that as well?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, great. If we extend that metaphor of the tree, we can think about how trees change their functioning across the year cycle. So trees in spring and summer get busy, they're in full foliage, and they are doing their utmost to capture the sun's energy. They're being very productive, creating the fuel that it needs to grow and develop. And I like to think about that as get mode, right? It's very active, it's very much about striving to capture that energy. And I think we have our spring and summer, we have our get mode. We are motivated to work towards achievement, we have ambitions, and it's important for us to set goals and to work towards those goals. So, like trees, we have our get mode. Now, trees also need to be robust and to invest energy in protecting themselves, so they will have mechanisms that protect them from bug infestations, so they can use their sap, for example, as a way of protecting them from bugs, and they also need to be vigilant to fungi, which can infect the bark and can indeed kill a tree. So trees need to invest energy in surviving. Trees have their threat mode as well, and we too have our threat mode. It's important for us to respond to risk and danger. Unfortunately, our minds can go into overdrive and there can be a lot of false positives in terms of the threats that we might pick up. And we have these imaginal minds that can generate potential threats that could come further down the line. And because we can look back in time, we can also find ourselves full of regret and remorse about things that maybe didn't go so well, so our threat system can get overactive. Now, finally, trees in autumn and winter drop their leaves, they go into a period of dormancy, particularly deciduous trees. That's a time for reset, and trees need that reset. If I was to bring an oak sapling indoors, it wouldn't thrive, it would die because it's not going to get the natural signals it needs for its reset mode because of the artificial light inside. So trees need reset mode, and I think we need our reset mode. We need to take care of ourselves. And unfortunately, in modern life, our get and threat modes, I think, are very highly active, and our reset mode can be the poor cousin. So we need to blend these efforts between get, threat, and reset, which are about striving, surviving, and reviving, respectively. So yeah, we need to be purposeful in our reset. And it's the anatomy of a tree, its ability to be anchored, willing, and empowered that allow it to move flexibly between those three motivational modes. And I think psychological flexibility can help us move flexibly between those three motivational modes of get, threat, and reset.
SPEAKER_00:This resonates with me. I think in Australia, where we're either blessed or cursed with having summer at the start of the year, I know it motivates me to be quite ambitious. And sometimes I do see ambition as a double-edged sword, you know. You have all this excitement, you see this opportunity, and then you start to think, oh, I'm gonna do this or that. And then if you're not careful, we kind of get into this burnout state. So do you think people are too much focused on the get mode?
SPEAKER_01:I think we can be forgiven for being too focused on the get mode because there's a lot of cultural messaging around that. I I engage with social media, I'm on various streaming social media platforms. One thing that strikes me is that there's a real risk that those always-on kind of messages get promoted above others, and obviously algorithms can drive what we see, and my experience may not be the same as yours or somebody else's, but I'm conscious that there has been a lot of focus on this notion of having to almost sacrifice your own well-being on the altar of success. It's kind of like a the 5 a.m. club. You know, if you're not if you're not getting up at 4:45 a.m. and uh, you know, hitting the running track at 5, then in some way you're feeling. So I am a bit concerned about that. It's almost a compelling sell, it's a sexy sell, dare I say, that some of those more thoughtful, considered, and dare I say, less kind of driven attributes don't get celebrated quite as much. You know, hey, rest well doesn't maybe resonate as strongly as some sort of uh catchphrases like stay hard, which is David Goggins, right? His his kind of chat to camera. Um so yes, there can be a bit of uh a skewed perception of what qualities will actually allow you to sustain your efforts in the long term. It tends to focus on one end of the extreme and maybe not enough on those other. Also really important attributes.
SPEAKER_00:There's a Japanese concept called Yutori, and it's this idea of the gap or space, and it's throughout their culture, so in their architecture or as a psychological concept, or even in their music, there's intentional pauses or gaps. And in Japan, they don't have awkward silences where we tend to have this idea of an awkward silencing conversation. Do you think we need to spend more time in reset mode? And how can we give this gift to ourselves when we're surrounded by a world of distraction or this idea we have to be crushing it like David Goggins every morning?
SPEAKER_01:This gap mode, when we are really quite driven or thinking that we should be doing more, it can tip into threat mode because we're left to think I'm not enough. And there is this insidious movement towards us defining ourselves not on who we are, but what we do. And if we're not being productive enough, if we're not being successful, then who are we? And rather than us thinking about ourselves in terms of what we've done, what we do, maybe it's more about how we are, how we are with ourselves, how we are with others, how we are with our planet. So get mode and threat mode, you can find yourself flipping from get mode into threat mode. And yeah, I do think we need to be more purposeful in activating that reset mode. And there are different ways that we can do that. And in the book, I talk about two different strategies, one being um momentary moves, momentary moves. Those are moves we can do in moments, right? And the way we can access the reset mode in momentary ways is to draw on self-transcendent emotions. So there are three self-transcendent emotions that I think are particularly helpful for reset mode. One is wonder, and you alluded to this, Nick, that idea of getting into nature, connecting with something that is more vast than us. And I'm thinking here, for example, of forest bathing, which I know is is popular in Japan, but it could be about standing under a night sky, a star-filled sky. We were blessed in the northern hemisphere last year with Aurora Borealis, northern lights, which was fantastic, but that kind of sense of wonder that it inspires, that sense of connecting with something much, much more vast than ourselves. So connecting with nature can be a great way of activating that wonder. Green and blue spaces, as they're referred to, have been shown to be hugely helpful for our mental health and well-being, whether that's a coastal path that you walk on, or by a lake, or indeed in a wooded area or forest. The second self-transcendent emotion is gratitude. So gratitude is about that recognition of something we've reason to be thankful for. It could be an experience, it could be an interaction with a pet, it could be something that someone has done for us. We can take an opportunity to express that gratitude. So I could thank you, Nick, for sincerely inviting me on this podcast. I'm very grateful for that. So I can express that gratitude to you, and that can be conducive to my own well-being, to know that I have been authentic and true to myself in expressing how I feel. But it's potentially also helpful for you because you know you could easily have chosen to branch away and not contacted me, and hopefully you get something from that too. But equally, gratitude has been shown to be conducive for a reset and our well-being. And we don't need to necessarily express it outwardly. I could have a gratitude journal, and this evening I could write down three things that I'm grateful for. Oh, yeah, that conversation with Nick Kemp this morning was really, really good. And that can be really helpful for our well-being because we're taking stock, we are savouring the emotions that showed up as we did what we did. So gratitude is an important opportunity for reset. And finally, then there's compassion. And compassion is defined as an ability to empathize and recognize suffering in another or in oneself, and importantly, being motivated to do something to alleviate that suffering. And sometimes it can be easier to be more compassionate to others than it might be to be compassionate to ourselves. And there are exercises, techniques that we can use to develop that self-compassion muscle. It doesn't come easy because we have all kinds of fears that show up around self-compassion. I'll be letting myself off the hook, I'll be going easy on myself, or I don't deserve it, or it's self-indulgent, right? Or it's weak. But I see self-compassion as this very active, courageous willingness to take care of oneself. So those are the momentary moves, and then there are bold moves for resets, and those are larger commitments, perhaps counterintuitive. Um, for example, I took a 12-month career break from working at the university after finishing the book to take some time to realign with my purpose, my personal values. And yeah, that wasn't easy. It kind of felt like I was taking the food off the gas in some ways, and that can be scary. But I'm grateful that I did have that opportunity and that I was able to take it. So momentary moves, bold moves for resets.
SPEAKER_00:This is all resonating. I actually think in the future, spending time in nature will become like a pillar of health because we had diet and exercise for so long, and then sleep recently came into it. Like getting a good night's sleep apparently is like the number one thing to do for your health. And there's all this research and many books coming out. But we don't seem to talk about nature as something as a daily practice, whether you just go to your local park or if you're fortunate enough to be surrounded by a forest or go by the seaside. So I'm thinking when you go out in nature, you just feel it. You breathe it in, you feel better. Yet we don't seem to spend enough time outdoors. And then even when we're outdoors, we might not be in nature. So we're very much stuck in this artificial world. And then the gratitude piece is very important, especially in Japan. I wrote a book on something called rolefulness. Oddly, the term was coined by a Japanese professor, and there were three elements to it. They almost sound like too basic. So we're greeting people properly, having conversations like we're doing, and then expressing gratitude. You can do this really in any uh relationship, any situation. I think if gratitude's not exchanged or expressed unless you're not a very nice person, you kind of feel off. There's something missing. There is this urge. I guess compassion is really being present, not just for yourself, but for someone else and what they're going through. Obviously, we have to get through all this uh self-criticism before we can even take on being compassionate for ourselves. But I think this also all relates back to what you earlier mentioned, acceptance and commitment therapy. So, how does that all tie in to psychological flexibility?
SPEAKER_01:As I mentioned, uh alluded to this briefly, that the anatomy of the tree allows it to move flexibly between those three modes and get the threat and the reset. I would say that psychological flexibility is the key ingredient that allows us to either stay in a particular motivational mode if it's in service of doing what matters to us and it's consistent with our personal values, or indeed switching in to one of those other motivational modes because the context requires us to do so. Unfortunately, in life, we can find ourselves being hemmed into being one-trick ponies. Our workplaces can, for example, celebrate and reinforce particular characteristics and qualities and traits that we might have, and that can be very helpful. But those same traits that are helpful in a boardroom may not be that helpful in the kitchen or the family living room. So you've got to be able to flexibly move between these different modes of operating, depending on the context that we find ourselves in. And the book really culminates in the final chapter with a two-phase process. And the two-phase process is simply two main questions. So the first question is well, ask yourself what motivational mode are you in right now? I think that's a great question to ask through the day. Am I in get threat or reset mode? And within that question, it's helpful to ask yourself, well, what are the benefits of being in this mode right now? And there may well be some important benefits. You could be working towards a deadline, right? And get mode is is helping you um move towards that. The second sub question within that is what are the drawbacks of being in this motivational mode in this context? So just being explicit with yourself about well, what are the potential pitfalls? And finally, within that question, it's where am I on the sustainability question? You know, and that is can I maintain my current pace in this mode? I think you want to be on the right side of maybe in how you answer that question. So let me explain that. Arguably, if you're saying, and this is drawing from sporting analogy, it's actually a question that time trialists will ask themselves in cycle races. They'll ask, well, is my current pace um sustainable? And the argument is that if the answer is yes, you're not maybe pushing yourself hard enough. Okay, that's interesting. And if the answer is no, then the game's a bogey. You've probably pushed yourself too hard. So you need to reel back on it a bit. And the argument within this metaphor in cycling is that you want to be in the maybe zone. Maybe is my current pace sustainable. So you're kind of at that point where you're working hard and you can sustain that effort in the long run. There's an openness to consider that that's still going to be. Possible. Well, in life, I think we need to ensure we're on the right side of maybe. You know, you don't want to be on the wrong side. And if you're on the wrong side, if it's a clear no thing, you're going to have to explore other modes and maybe take other uh steps to ensure that you get adequate support or help to get the work done. So then the next question is how can I bring my psychological flexibility skills to help me either stay in this zone or navigate away from it? What can I do to be anchored, willing, and empowered? So basically it's about where am I? What motivational mode am I in? Okay. And then how can I use my psychological flexibility skills of anchored, willing, and empowered to either stay in this mode or to switch to another.
SPEAKER_00:So presence keeps coming back to my mind, like, oh, we must be so present to be able to work out. Yeah, are we in the maybe, the good side of maybe? I like how it's maybe, it's not some cliched, I'm in the zone. But that's true. Like you wouldn't have absolute certainty if you're, let's say, doing a time trial. If it's long enough, I guess pace matters, energy. If you've gone out too hard, you think, okay, well, yeah, I'm not going to do well in this race. But these questions are important. I do have this question, and I'm kind of scared to ask it because I think we're living in this world of distraction, and if we're trying to be psychological flexible, do you think that's getting harder? I mean, I I know you work with athletes, but for people in general who aren't, let's say, driven for specific goals and relentless in their training and goal achievement, with phones and entertainment on tap now. Is it harder to be psychological flexible? Assuming people know the concept, which might be the first total as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Let's just begin by saying our attentional resource does need to cycle. There are going to be times where our attention does need to be laser focused, and we need to really allow ourselves time and opportunity to do a task or to commit to a practice or be where we are. And then there are going to be times where we need to refresh or restore that attention. And do you know what? Like mobile phones and little games and a bit of time on social media, that can give your attentional resource a bit of downtime to go again. So I'm not going to decry the end of our attentional resource through technology, but I agree that we need to be considered and thoughtful about well, how do we maintain a level of awareness and indeed an awareness of our awareness, meta-awareness, it's sometimes called, which speaks to the point that you were alluding to, Nick, that idea of, well, in the heat of the moment, in the heat of the race, are we going to have the wherewithal to kind of have the ability to ask ourselves those questions, those two key questions that I alluded to earlier? I think we need to be proactive in investing in our meta-awareness, our ability to be aware of where our attention has moved to. And there are steps that we can take to do that, to build that presence that you mentioned, which really speaks to the anchored element of psychological flexibility being anchored in the here and now. I think practices like mindfulness or other forms of meditative practice can be very helpful at doing that proactive work to help us stay centered, to notice when we've moved away from center so that we can have the opportunity to choose to bring ourselves back potentially. There's a risk sometimes that, particularly in the West, we relate to mindfulness practice or meditation in a reactive way. It's kind of like a break glass point. You know, it's kind of like, oh, sugar lumps, the stress is really come on. I'll do my meditation now. And it's kind of like sewing your parachute as you're jumping out of the plane. It's kind of like do the work beforehand, invest proactively in helping yourself stay centered. So it does require a level of discipline. It does require commitment, it does require consistency. And sometimes that's the stuff that can get washed away in our frantic lives. So yeah, being purposeful and deliberate about making time for those practices, I think, is important.
SPEAKER_00:Do you encourage journaling?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, journaling would be a practice that I do talk about in the book and I do use with my clients. And there's some acronyms that are very useful for helping to drive the journaling activity. So it may be journaling around gratitude in particular. That's an approach that I outline in the book. But equally it could be more of a reflective framework. So what happened, what went well, what didn't go so well, what have I learned, those kind of prompts that help people prepare for other eventualities that they could face in the future.
SPEAKER_00:I find it very effective. From what I can tell, people who tend to journal seem to have more control of their life. Not equating success to purposeful, but they also seem to have more success, like they're in control, they're very aware of what they want. And they'll tell you they've got a bookshelf of dating back from years ago. I think a lot of people think journaling's hard, especially if you can't like me, handwriting's horrible, you can't spell, and you you're worried about how it looks. But if you let all that go and think, well, it's only for me. I'm the only person reading it. I might not even read it, I'm just writing it out. And you free yourself from any ideas that your writing has to be beautiful or grammatically correct, it becomes very helpful. And it would be so helpful maybe to start or end the day with a few thoughtful questions on how am I feeling, what's my intention, what can I do for myself or others. I'm a big believer in that. And I think journaling also helps you with purpose, and you also touch on purpose. You talk about how some people think purpose is something you find or it's your why. Famously, someone said it's your why, or it's something we find, but you have a different take on purpose. So we'd like to share that.
SPEAKER_01:Allude to this in the book, but I've also written uh an article recently for Psyche magazine, and it's due to come out over the next month or two. I talk about how uh to my mind purpose isn't something we find, it's something we form. And I'm concerned about some of the messaging around purpose and this idea that we find it because it suggests that we're in a position of scarcity. Do you know it's kind of like it's something I don't yet have? And I think that's misleading, and I'll say a little more about why I think it's misleading. But in addition, it's kind of like we're waiting, waiting for this moment of discovery. Almost like walking around the corner and you trip over your purpose. Oh, there you were all this time, fully formed, all fleshed out and ready to get up and running with. I think that just creates a sense of frustration when people are left to think, well, I haven't found it. Um, if there are little crumbs of indication, well, that's not really it, because it it should be something that's more fully established and there. And I think it also breeds a sense of despondency, even if you stumble on something that does feel intrinsically important. Uh, if challenges arise, it can give a sense of uh despondency that it's not as perfect as it ought to have been or should be. So for me, I think the idea of forming purpose is so much more helpful. It's a place of abundance, it's already there, it's maybe within you in terms of little things that you've tried that have brought vitality, enthusiasm, that have lit you up. Or it could be these ideas that you maybe haven't had the chance yet to operationalize that excite you, that give you enthusiasm, that give you that sense of vitality. So I'm quite interested in that element. And when we think about forming something, we recognize that it's a process, it's an ongoing commitment rather than oh, here it is, fully fledged, and it's also highlighting that it evolves, it can change and shift over time, and indeed uh maybe two, three purposes, plural, can coexist and evolve alongside each other. And there's not this sort of sense of despondency then that might arise if things start to go awry or or challenges arise. Well, this is part of what evolution is about. Evolution is not necessarily without friction. So I like that idea of cultivating and forming our purpose. They are acorns that are there within our lives already. We don't have to wait for a moment of epiphany.
SPEAKER_00:We do tend to have this all or nothing attitude to purpose. In the West, we often equate it to success. I think you also make the distinction. It's like a sense of purpose. So you can feel it, cultivate it, and feel it in the small and just doing things well. You could have several goal-driven purposes. You don't have to have one that's going to magically transform your life somehow. So we have this unrealistic idea of oh, purpose is sweet spot. It's the same for icky guy. Ike guy is sort of appropriated and misunderstood, and people think it's this perfect sweet spot you'll eventually get to. I think there's a word for that, like destination addiction or something.
SPEAKER_01:And with that, there's also this concept of arrival fallacy that we can get an achievement, a moment of success, and we think, well, this is what I've been working towards. This is so much my purpose. And then we're left to feel this sense of emptiness within a relatively short period of time after that joy and the initial jubilation. Well, what's life about now, and where do I go from here? So it's not this magical answer that this outcome that we had tethered so closely to our sense of purpose.
SPEAKER_00:We've either been misled or we've we've bought into the dream. Interesting, the Japanese word for purpose, the the two kanji characters can be read as use life. And so I think it's a wonderful definition. It's more about using your life in a daily context. How do you want to use your life? And then from that, you're likely to feel a sense of purpose rather than always forward looking, thinking I'll get there someday. So this actually might move us towards icky guy. What makes your life feel worth living? So I imagine that's a number of things for you, Ross, including your your work and I think outdoors from what I know of you. So yeah, what makes your life feel worth living?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a great question. For me, I really have thought a lot about this, and my sense of purpose, I realize, is helping other people to really get in touch with their sense of purpose. Now that sounds like a corny answer, but there's something incredibly special to me about seeing the lights come on behind my clients' eyes. That idea of them lighting up as they start to reconnect with what it is that they've become distant from or felt that they ought not to pursue, because they've been influenced in pursuing other objectives and outcomes, and they're realizing that they have this opportunity to come back to themselves. It was that was driving them as opposed to what they they felt they should do, they ought to do, and we're shooting ourselves to death. I should do this, I should do that. And so, yeah, I love that work with clients, really helping them to connect with their sense of purpose. Um, so professionally, that's absolutely there. And um yeah, you're right about nature, about getting outdoors. I quite enjoy road cycling as well. It's a beautiful way to take in a lot of miles and to really get to know a landscape. We're blessed in Ireland with um beautiful countryside. I take part in what are called sportives and their endurance rides, maybe anything between 90 miles up to maybe 160 miles, and you do them in a day, you do your training, you do a few hills, but you also get an opportunity to take in that countryside, and some of them are along um coastal routes as well, which is stunning. I spend a lot of time in the west of Ireland, um what's called the Wild Atlantic Way, um, where the Atlantic Ocean meets the Irish coast, and it's quite a rugged coastline. So I quite enjoy doing cold water dipping. So I was in the Atlantic yesterday, uh, 10 degrees Celsius, um, just marginally um cooler than the air temperature, to be honest, at this time of the year. So that's very invigorating. And you know, you alluded to this earlier that we can be clear on what our passions might be, what our sense of purpose could be, and our mind will generate so much in terms of potential resistance and reasons why we ought not to, we should not. In anticipation of doing things, our minds will get very busy and active. And cold water dipping is very much like that. You know, this is gonna be so cold, this is gonna be so cold. And when you're actually in the situation and you've done it, the sense of exhilaration and the reset that that provides, it's it's amazing. So it's a good example of psychological flexibility and action, us being willing to show up to the stories, willing to lean into that trepidation and uh the worry about the the cold temperature and do it because it's important to connect with nature for me in that way. Love it.
SPEAKER_00:In my showers with a cold finish, so and it's so easy now, but the first couple of times, so I probably need to just walk into a cold chatter now if I want to challenge myself.
SPEAKER_01:Good. Well, I look I look forward to hearing how that goes.
SPEAKER_00:Don't don't force me to make a video of something, but uh but it is fascinating how our minds can really something that can be initially positive. Our mind can even turn it and say, Oh, well, things could go wrong, or is it really for you? So our mind can be our best friend or our worst enemy. We've got this incredible ability to imagine things, create things, uh, communicate. Look, everything around us, someone's created with your imagination somehow. Yeah, uh, it can also be debilitating and create false fear and hold ourselves back. But with a flexible mind, we can thrive and be like a tree that bends. So it's been a joy to get to know you, Ross. So how can people find or reach out to you?
SPEAKER_01:They can reach out on LinkedIn. My profile name is Dr. Ross G White. I'm on Instagram at Ross G White, um on X, what was formerly Twitter, at Ross G White as well. I welcome people reaching out and yeah, check out uh my webpage as well. It's www.rosgwhite.com, and that tells you a bit more about the book and the work that I do, and there's links to Strive to Thrive, which is the consultancy organization that you mentioned at the top of the show. So happy to explore collaborations and learn from others, and hopefully they get a bit of an opportunity to learn from me too.
SPEAKER_00:So we'll put all that in the show notes and links to all those web properties. So is there any final message or thoughts you'd like to share with our audience?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Principle that I think has been really helpful in my life, and I hope it will be helpful in the lives of others, is this idea of strong intention, light attachment. So let's commit to being strong in our intention, be true to our sense of purpose and our personal values, and light in getting attached to there being one particular way that we should do that. And I think we can sometimes, like moths around a light bulb, get very attracted to particular ways of doing things. And really, flexibility is about recognizing that there are many paths to purpose, many paths to personal values. And I just encourage people to hold that in mind that strong intention, light attachment idea.
SPEAKER_00:Love it. I think it's a perfect way to end. So that's a lovely takeaway. So thank you, Ross, for joining me in your morning and my evening.
SPEAKER_01:Pleasure.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for the invite. My pleasure, mate.