The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Ikigai Decisions: Aligning Your Life with What Matters Most with Christopher Tan
What happens when a successful financial advisor abandons commissions to build an ethical wealth management company? Christopher Tan takes us through his remarkable journey from sleeping on his family's living room floor to founding Provident, a fee-only wealth advisory firm in Singapore that's redefining how financial decisions serve life's most meaningful pursuits.
Chris reveals the formative experiences that shaped his ethical compass: growing up in a humble family where his bus driver father's earnings were stretched by his resourceful mother, developing leadership skills during six years as an army officer, and experiencing a moral awakening when a client questioned why he kept selling him unnecessary insurance products. This pivotal moment led Chris to walk away from lucrative recurring commissions to establish a company aligned with his values.
The path wasn't easy. Launching his firm on September 11, 2001, facing licensing delays, and navigating the 2008 financial crisis where his company lost $100 million in three months tested his resolve. Yet these challenges crystallized his "philosophy of sufficiency" – a powerful approach that reframes contentment not as settling for less, but actively identifying what truly matters and arranging finances to support those priorities.
What makes Chris's approach extraordinary is how he's integrated the Japanese concept of ikigai into wealth management. Rather than pushing clients to accumulate endlessly, he helps them make what he calls "ikigai decisions" – life choices that reflect their deepest values – before making financial ones. This paradigm shift has transformed how his clients view money: not as the goal, but as the enabler of a life worth living.
Beyond client relationships, Chris has created what he calls a "corporate family" culture where employees find psychological safety, grace, and forgiveness alongside professional accountability. His dedication to developing the next generation of ethical leaders while honoring their own sources of meaning exemplifies his holistic understanding of true wealth.
Ready to rethink your relationship with money? Join us for this thought-provoking conversation that challenges conventional financial wisdom and offers a more fulfilling path forward. How might your life change if your financial decisions followed your life decisions, not led them?
It has always been my aspiration that the workplace is a different kind of workplace that we always hear of. Some people say that you cannot call your workplace your family. I challenge this. I strongly believe that the workplace is a corporate family.
Speaker 2:My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Christopher Tan, group Chief Executive Officer of Provident, a fee-only wealth advisory firm and a licensed fund management company with the Monetary Authority of Singapore. With more than two decades of experience in the wealth management and financial planning industry, christopher is often quoted in the local press, as well as financial magazines, for his expert opinion on financial matters. He contributes regularly to periodicals such as the Business Times, the Edge, the Straight Times, the Sunday Times and other publications. Channel News Australia, cctv, channel 5 and Channel 8 have also interviewed him on issues relating to personal finance. Since the beginning of his career in wealth management industry, christopher has spoken to hundreds of entities, educating them on personal financial planning issues. He is an internationally sought after speaker and has spoken on financial planning issues to hundreds of entities, both local and overseas, including at the CFA Institute Annual Conference held in Singapore.
Speaker 2:Chris, you are also a certified Hikikai Tribe coach, a friend of mine, and I've had the pleasure of being a guest on your podcast. It's wonderful to have you on mine and we also met in person when you came to Melbourne a few years ago. Good to see you, chris.
Speaker 1:Hi, nick, it's good to be here and thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast, my pleasure.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's taken a while, but we're here and I'm very happy for you to be here. How is your daughter? Is she still in Melbourne?
Speaker 1:No, she came back to Singapore, I think sometime last year. She was really hoping to stay in Melbourne to work, but unfortunately she couldn't find a job after five months and I told her she better come back because I'm not going to pay her rent.
Speaker 2:Fair enough. Well, on the subject of family, let's start with some background. You were one of four children, so a family of six. Some background you were one of four children, so a family of six, and I know your father was a bus driver. So how was life growing up in a fairly large family?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're right to say that I've got three other siblings and they are all girls, so I'm the only son in the family, but I rank second. So I have an elder sister and two younger sisters, and well, we all squeezed into a small flat whereby there were two rooms, one room taken by my parents and the other room all four kids have to share. But, of course, as we all grew bigger, we all grew older. I've got to let my three sisters be in the room. It's more convenient for the ladies to sleep together, and so I slept on the floor in the living room.
Speaker 1:I think life was okay, although, I mean, honestly, we were poor, but somehow our parents never made us feel like we were poor. My mom, especially my late mom, for the little that my father brought home, when my father gave her the money, she could somehow turn whatever $1 that my father gave to her into many, many dollars. We don't know how, but she always has a way to go and buy things cheaper. Yeah, so, honestly, we didn't grow up feeling that we lack anything and we all got along until today. All my siblings, we got along. You know, we have a family chat. Even though our parents are gone now, we still chat regularly and our relationship has been good so far.
Speaker 2:Well, that's good to hear. So, yeah, families often fall apart when the parents die. But wow, so you came from humble beginnings and then, after that, you joined the army and spent six years as an officer. What were those six years like?
Speaker 1:yeah. So you know, in singapore it's a conscription army, so all boys at the age of 18 or 19 years old we get conscripted to join the army and then, after my time, after two and a half years, we leave the army and then most boys will go and study in a university. But I decided to stay on. So after I graduated from officer cadet school, I got posted to a unit. I took over a command of a platoon and then I realized at first, see, I really liked the life of a platoon commander. I like to go out to the field, I like to bring men out, you know, into the jungle, to do training. I feel that sense of satisfaction when I participate in battalion exercises. So that was one of my reasons why I signed on as a regular, as a career army officer. The second reason really is I needed money to study. So I got a diploma in engineering. But you know, nick, I am really really, really bad in engineering. I didn't like it, and so I knew that I've got to change my course of career. So I decided to do something else. But my father he has four kids and he doesn't have the money to send me to a university, to an overseas university because the local university would be too difficult for me to get in, especially with my poor results. So I decided to study part-time and I needed money. So being a career army officer was the fastest way to earn some money.
Speaker 1:So for these two reasons, I stayed with the army for six years, and six and a half years to be exact in total. In those six years, I must say I really, really enjoyed myself. I enjoyed the work, I enjoyed the time that I used to study part time for my first degree. My first degree was in finance, but I also learned a lot of things, especially pertaining to leadership, when I was in the army. So I would say, good 80% of what I know about leadership today, I learned it from the army. So, yeah, I'm very grateful to the army for not just giving me a job, the benefits, the salary that I can earn, you know, and that allowed me to study, that allowed me to start my family, buy my first house, buy my first car and took away many leadership lessons. So I'm always very grateful to the army Wonderful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I was going to ask you on that if you learned leadership skills in the army, and it certainly sounds like you did, so that's great.
Speaker 1:And that eventually, I guess, led you to start working in insurance. So you want to talk about that did, and I wanted to go and be in the financial services industry. But unfortunately in 1997, that was the Asian financial crisis and there were hardly any jobs in financial services. But I needed a job. I was already married back then and so I joined a pharmaceutical company called Janssen Janssen Select, which is a division of Johnson Johnson.
Speaker 1:My job was a medical sales rep. I was a legal drug pusher. I was literally pushing drugs to the doctors. So every day I'll carry a bag of drugs, I'll visit the general practitioners, the GPs, and I will knock on the doors and I try and recommend my drugs to them, my medicines to them. So I spent about one year, three months, with Johnson Johnson, absolutely enjoyed it because I learned a lot of things about medicine. I picked up selling skills as a medical sales representative, but I knew then that that wasn't the place because I was really interested in personal finance. So in 1998, march, I switched to financial services and in Singapore back then, if you want to do personal finance, you either join the bank, you join the insurance companies or you join a stockbroking firm, and I chose to join an insurance company, so that's how I started, one year after I left the army.
Speaker 2:I see. So you got into insurance and from what I've heard you sound like you didn't enjoy it. But there was this amount of money you mentioned in one of your stories of $21.59. So why is that figure significant?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you know, in the insurance company you don't have a fixed salary right. You make from the commissions when you successfully sell a product to a client. And so I spent three years with the insurance company and I actually did very well. I can't say I didn't enjoy the money, it was good money. So I did very well in the first year. Within nine months I was the second top rookie advisor with the insurance company, with thousands of people.
Speaker 1:And in the insurance industry there's this title called Million Dollar Roundtable, or MDRT, and I did MDRT when nobody that year did MDRT, or very few people did MDRT, because it was just one year after the Asian financial crisis. But before I got there at the end of the first year, I was burning cash because your commissions don't come immediately, it takes months to come. Because your commissions don't come immediately, it takes months to come. And at one point I remember going to the ATM and I pressed and I took out some money and I saw that I've only got $21.59 left in the bank account. I kept that receipt. It was on thermal paper. Unfortunately the ink got faded away, but I kept it for a long time to remind myself that, yeah, there was a stage in my life whereby I've just got $21.59 behind my name.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but subsequently, of course, I did very well in the first year, second year, third year and by the third year, when I was with the insurance company, I was already making like $200,000. That was back in the year 2000. Even by today's standard, earning $200,000 a year is considered pretty good money. You imagine that that was 25 years ago and $200,000 for a 30-year-old man was actually a lot of money.
Speaker 2:I'm not surprised. You do have a very strong work ethic, even to the point where you closed the client soon after you had burst your appendix and I think your doctor said, oh, you asked your doctor, can I do anything to improve my recovery? And he's like, well, you can take a walk. And so you go and take a walk to close a client. Do you want to talk about this work ethic? Where does it come from?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that happened in August of 1998, a month before my son was born. So I was working very hard and I didn't know that I was suffering from appendicitis. I went to see a doctor. The doctor diagnosed me as having food poisoning, so gave me all the drugs for food poisoning. I endured the pain for four to five days and finally all the drugs for food poisoning. I endured the pain for four to five days and finally one morning on the fifth day I woke up. I had a sharp pain in my groin area and I knew I was in trouble.
Speaker 1:When I was sent to the hospital, the doctor discovered that my appendix burst. You know, and I still remember my wife was there pushing me into accompanying me into the operating theater. She was tearing away because, you know, it's quite dangerous to have your appendix burst and my son was supposed to be born one month later and she doesn't want the son to be born fatherless right Just after birth. Yeah, so thankfully I came out of the operation alive and usually it takes about five days to a week before you can leave the hospital. But I needed to close a deal and it was very important to close that deal and I don't want to bore the listeners here with the details, but if I don't close it fast enough, the money will be gone right. So I needed to get out.
Speaker 1:But I have this tube of a bag of all the dirty things coming from my tummy hanging on me and I was asking a doctor. I got to get out of the hospital as soon as possible and a doctor said the only way you can do that is you walk around the hospital, get the gas out, start to pass urine on your own, then we can discharge you. So I remember I was pushing the stand with the drip and then with my back hanging on my tummy and I was walking up and down the hospital and I left the hospital after three days and then went to see the client in t-shirts and shorts because I still had to stitch. And then I closed the deal and it was a pretty big deal. It was, I remember, 10,000, 15,000 commission.
Speaker 1:Where did I get a work ethic? Well, when you don't have enough money, you have to do anything to get the money right. So I worked very hard and for me I always know that, compared to many people, academically I'm not as bright as them and the only way to compensate for that is through hard work, and so at a very young age I always work as hard as I can to compensate for the lack of academic intelligence.
Speaker 2:Appreciate you sharing that, but you are a very intelligent man, you have incredible social skills and you have a lot of qualities I admire, which we'll talk about soon. So one day I mean, here you are, you're doing very well selling insurance and then one day, a client who trusted you essentially changed your life in a conversation. So do you want to share that conversation?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So this was a pretty big client and he was a pretty senior gentleman. I was about 30 years old and this gentleman, I think, was in his 50s. He was a business owner and I went to see him as usual. I presented a product to him. He looked at the product, he pushed it aside and he looked at me and he said, chris, you know I like you. Or rather he said, you know I like you, and every time when you come and propose something to me, I always buy something from you, but surely at some point I wouldn't need any more insurance. And that really hit me and I felt very guilty about it, because he was right and I thought that all this time I was helping this guy, I was proposing a solution to this guy, but unknown to me. Actually, he was helping me and he was being very authentic to tell me that at some point, if he doesn't need insurance, I shouldn't push any more insurance to him.
Speaker 1:That really really changed me, because I knew that I couldn't do this anymore, because when I entered the insurance company I really wanted to do comprehensive financial planning, I wanted to give wealth advice, but I ended up just being an insurance product salesperson. So, although the money was very good, I wasn't enjoying the work completely. I enjoyed the money, but I didn't enjoy the work. The advice is really just restricted to insurance product. I wanted to do a lot more and I wanted to do something that I can look at the clients in their eye and to say that I've done the best for you. It's got nothing to do with compensation. Yeah, so that was what happened, and soon after, a couple of months later, I quit the insurance company and started out on my own it's an inspiring story.
Speaker 2:It's ethical. I guess you had this realization of ethics what's wrong, what's right and you realized, ah, I'm just selling insurance to people who don't really need it, you.
Speaker 1:It was also pure stupidity, nick, because I was young and throwing away a recurring commission. So thanks for saying yeah, work ethic and all that, but but I guess, at 30, I was also young, naive, enthusiastic. I thought I can conquer the world and I threw away the recurring commissions. That amounted to, I think, if I remember, was like $200,000, $250,000 of recurring commissions.
Speaker 2:Well, you made the right decision because you then went and started Provident, a wealth management company, and you wanted to be different in how you served and charged clients. So do you want to talk about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So after I left the insurance company that was sometime in 2001, I wanted to do something totally different. I got to know about the fee-only wealth advisory practice how the more developed countries like Australia, like the United States, they were doing and I like the whole idea of just charging a fee for advice and not taking commissions, because that allows me to be on the client side so well, together with one partner. He quit as well, and then we started Provident in early 2001. But unfortunately, well, we couldn't get a license. And the long and short of the story is that we left in early 2001. We were getting ready and then we had a bunch of people joining us. We have friends who are from the same insurance company. They were shocked that we left because we were doing very well. They came and they joined us and officially we launched the company Provident on September 11, 2001.
Speaker 1:I'm sure, nick, you remember September 11, 2001. Oh, wow, yeah. So 6 pm on September 11, 2001, I went to sign the tenancy agreement for the office space, had dinner and went back home and at about 9pm I was shocked to see the planes crashing into World Trade Center, new York. And the story behind is that in Singapore, there wasn't the Financial Advisors Act yet. The government said that they are going to start, or rather they're going to put in place the Act in September and subsequently we can apply for the license. So we started a company in anticipation of the act being put in place. But after September 11, I think, the government wanted to focus on security and the act was delayed until one year later, the act was finally put in place and we applied for the license. So, although we started in 2001, provident was officially licensed by our central bank only in March of, or, to be precise, may of 2003.
Speaker 2:I see, wow, so that was a setback on the day you started.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I mean for a long time we couldn't do anything, we couldn't make money, but we had costs. We've got to pay rent, we've got to pay salaries of some of the staff, and so the partners only took back whatever we have, if there was anything at all. And so from, for someone who has earned a few hundred thousands of commissions, suddenly, you know, my, my, my salary was like five hundred dollars a month. On the best month it was just a little more than a thousand dollars. And of course all we do we were doing very low kind of fee work. We're doing a bit of estate planning and all that. So that period was tough.
Speaker 2:There you go. So this is all this experience, I think, in a way served you, though, but if we go back to how you decided to do a charge with fees rather than commission, so this was obviously not common practice in Singapore. So how did the industry respond to this?
Speaker 1:They hated me, of course, and I partly have to take the blame because I was 31 years old, a young CEO and founder started a company. I was so charged up, you know, and so I have a regular column on our business times and I wrote a lot Every month. I would write about the problems with taking commissions, you know, and I was really harsh with my words. I mean, on hindsight, I shouldn't have done that, you know, I was putting down the commission people, even though I strongly believe that commissions is a potential conflict of interest. Even until today, I sincerely believe that the fee way is a better way to give advice. But there was no need to put down other people. But I did that right. And so the industry really, really disliked me for all the things that I said. I was uncovering a lot of not so good practices in the industry, so I made a lot of enemies. When I go for industry events, people they don't want to talk to me. That was tough as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, someone really didn't like you and sent you a letter with something he would hope for your son. So do you want to share that letter?
Speaker 1:So do you want to share that letter? Yeah, so I was really shocked one day to find in my mailbox and at that time I stay in a gated community, you know, I don't know how this person got in through the security and put a letter in my mailbox. It was without a stamp, so I knew that he has to be there personally to put it. Maybe he stayed in that condo, maybe he was a neighbor.
Speaker 1:But in the letter he was cursing my son. He was saying that no, because we didn't believe I mean we didn't believe for insurance, in using whole life insurance. We believe in using term insurance because it is a cheaper form of insurance and you can still get yourself fully covered, and so on and so forth. And I think this guy is probably a commission-based advisor and he said that, well, I hope that when your insurance ends because the term insurance and when your son gets cancer, you have nothing. You have no money, no insurance to take care of him. To that extent not in the actual words, but basically he was saying that he hopes my son will get cancer and then I don't have money to take care of my son. So that really came as a shock to me, the amount of hate this person has for me to do such a thing yeah, he must have really, or he must have been really angry and full of hate.
Speaker 2:so, yeah, here you are doing the right thing, copping some pressure and stress from the industry. Sounded like your business was stable and making progress, and then there was the Lehman Brothers collapse in the crash of 2008. So talk to me about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so well. The company started. I mean, we started operating May of 2003 and we were doing very well, you know, I would say very well by the growth rate. By September of 2008, the asset under management was already about $258 million and then the subprime crisis blew up right and within three months our asset under management dropped to 160 million, mainly because of paper losses and clients panic and they redeem their investment. So we lost 100 million within three months and that has a direct impact on our revenue for the company.
Speaker 1:So that was really difficult. Many clients were very angry with us. The morale of the company was low, so during that period we have staff leaving. That was really the, I would say if I look at the past 55 years of my life, that would rank definitely, I think, top three or maybe even number one, the most difficult time in my life. That would rank definitely, I think, top three or maybe even number one, the most difficult time in my life because I have to manage the clients, angry clients, I have to manage the morale of the company. So that was a very tough period?
Speaker 2:Certainly sounds like it. And then, in researching for this interview, I found out every year you have an annual client event where you talk to your clients about the financial markets and portfolio performance, and you obviously entertain them, but I'm sure back in 2008, you weren't there to entertain them. I guess you had to explain what was going on. So how did you approach that annual event? What did you say to your clients?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the annual event is held usually at the beginning of the year, so the event was in the beginning of 2009, just months after the global financial crisis, and I was thinking at that time what do I say to the clients? I mean, of course, I can say, look, look, guys, it's just too bad. You know, and we are not the only financial institutions that is hit. You know, everyone in the financial services industry was hit quite badly with the GFC right. But I decided to go to the clients and apologize for the areas that we didn't do well. In fact, I asked my in-house legal counsel and I said I'm going to say this. Right, I'm going to say, James, I'm going to say this, I'm going to tell the clients I'm sorry, we should have done better, but we didn't do well, what do you think? And my in-house legal at the time said I suggest you think twice, because if you do that, you may have clients coming after you and asking you to pay them back the money, you know, and all that. But I told him that I have no other reasons to give. I can't think of any other reasons to give and I'd rather come clean. And so, in February or March of 2009,. I told the clients just that I apologize to the clients and I told them that you know, if you still trust me, if you still trust Provident, we will never, ever do something like this again. You know that will disappoint you.
Speaker 1:I was very, very grateful that majority of our clients stayed on and since then, in 2008, we changed the way we invest our money. We improved our processes and so, despite the markets going through several crises after that, we were fine and the portfolios are all doing well. The returns of the portfolios are all coming in as expected and we definitely have happier clients. Today, and I look back, I think I don't regret facing the clients, especially when they are angry, difficult times, because it's always easy to say something when times are good. You know it is when times are bad that you face the client and you stick on to what you believe in. Yes, you get hit, you get whacked, you get screamed at, but that's what you are paid to do. You are paid to take in the emotions of the clients, right, and so I'm very glad that we did that and today we are okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it speaks of your qualities as a person, so doing the right thing and even despite so much of what happened in 2008 was outside of your control, you still decided to think, oh okay, yeah, we could have managed things better. And because you did that in 2020 with the pandemic, it seemed like you didn't have the same problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, of course, by 2020, our investment process has been improved tremendously.
Speaker 1:So, when 2020 came, march of 2020, the S&P 500 fell about 30% within a week, you know, from the peak, and it was a very scary time for the investors.
Speaker 1:And so we basically we activated a process that we have been rehearsing and practicing for a long time, you know, and or rather, we activated a process that we have put in place I wouldn't say practiced for a long time, but put in place. We had a chance to activate it and almost 100% of our clients didn't pull out this time. Instead, they put in more money because they knew that markets is going to recover and, true enough, by the end of 2020, despite the fall of 30% from its peak in March, the market recovered from then from that point, about 81% and yeah, so very grateful again for clients who trusted us. And from 2020, you know, until today, I mean, there were several markets downturn and especially the more recent one in April, when the US President Trump announced Liberation Day and there was a lot of panic in the market. But the clients we now have very little trouble with trying to convince clients not to panic, not to bail out. Yeah, so things are definitely a lot better today in the company.
Speaker 2:Nice, yeah, so we're actually getting to Ikigai eventually. We've given quite a bit of background, but we've gone deep into your background because of these challenges, I think, of your journey from very humble beginnings and to obviously having success and financial success, but I know that's not the most important thing for you. But it also speaks of, I think, of rolefulness. You found this role in your life in the financial and wealth management industry, where you've been very clear on who you want to be and how you want to behave and how you want to treat your clients and how you want to hold yourself, and so I think you're quite unique in this role and, yeah, I really admire it.
Speaker 2:So you're very roleful in the most sort of respectful, ethical way in an industry that you know can have a lot of problems. You know not, not everyone has wealth, but, yeah, you're a man of conviction and you do the right thing, which I think is very rare. So another idea or philosophy that you have at Provident is this idea of sufficiency. So can we touch on that before we dive into Ikigai?
Speaker 1:Yes. So this whole philosophy of sufficiency came about two years after the GFC of 2008. It all came about and I had an epiphany. I was walking outside the McDonald's near my house and then suddenly I had this inner voice. It wasn't an audible voice, it's an inner voice that came, and because I'm a Christian, I believe that that inner voice came from God. You know, and I could still today remember the words, almost a hundred percent of it, right? So the inner voice that I heard was the devil has used money as the weapon of mass destruction to destroy the West. Because that was the GFC. You have the knowledge, you have the license. What are you going to do about it? And so out from that came the philosophy of sufficiency.
Speaker 1:So what is the philosophy of sufficiency? The philosophy of sufficiency is the philosophy of enough. It is the philosophy of knowing that you have enough. It is the philosophy of contentment. But what is contentment? Well, contentment is not a passive acceptance of things, it is not resignation, it is not I've got no choice, this is my lot in life. Then that will become the philosophy of mediocrity, just accepting things as they were and not trying to do your best to make things better, but rather the philosophy of sufficiency. The contentment is about an active pursuit of what is the most important things in your life. And once you have these important things in your life, you accept that it is okay not to have the rest of the things, because the truth is that we cannot have everything in life. So it requires us to sit down to contemplate, to deliberate what are the things in life that, in our Ikigai language, they are of most value, that's most important. And once we know what are these important things, we arrange our financial affairs to enable these important things. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to buy more products, accumulate more. Sometimes it might mean decluttering, it might even mean taking on a smaller job, it might mean that you are paid lesser, but you do all these to enable things that are most important for you. So that's the philosophy of sufficiency.
Speaker 1:And so in 2010, personally, I decluttered my life. So I moved from a private property in Singapore. As I was talking to you before the start of the recording, I was telling you that I think about 85% of Singaporeans we stay in good quality public housing, and then many people they want to upgrade to a private property, which I did when I was young. It costs a lot more, but in 2010, I decided to move back to public housing. I sold out from two cars to one car, kept the family car, but I started taking public transport, saved a lot of money and life became a lot simpler.
Speaker 1:I don't have so much debt, I don't have so much loan, I can make decisions without having to worry about financial obligations, and this is something that I strongly believe in that we always must make financial decisions first, or rather, we must always make life decisions before financial decisions. Our financial decisions must enable our life decisions, and not the other way around. It would be disastrous to start making financial decisions first and then arrange our life to support that financial decisions right. So that's the philosophy of sufficiency and, of course, over time, over the last 10 years or so, we have fine-tuned that philosophy in a way that it is now the outworking of that philosophy. Now is the way we use to invest for our clients, to give them the highest probability of success. The outworking of their philosophy is now how we plan for our clients, by first helping them make the life decisions before they make financial decisions.
Speaker 2:And then we'll get into this. But this eventually led you to coming up with this term, ikigai decisions, which we'll touch on. But yeah, you came to me interested in studying Ikigai and yeah, obviously I've come to know you and I certainly see you as a man of high virtue. You have all these moral qualities and character traits alike. But, yeah, I did, like you, we had an interview and I thought, oh yeah, chris is a interesting guy. I think it'd be great for the program. So, yeah, why did you want to study Ikigai, and especially from you know an Australian of all people?
Speaker 1:I didn't know I have to study Ikigai from an Australian. I thought I would sit, you know, under the feet of a Japanese master to study Ikigai, yeah, but the truth was that I was looking I am always looking for ways to help our clients make better life decisions. I've developed some model on my own, but I felt that that model is a bit clumsy, difficult, and so I've always been looking at ways to improve that area of our process. And, of course, I stumbled upon Ikigai, and, like most people 99% of the people Ikigai equals the four-circle Venn diagram. I've bought books on the four-circle Venn diagram, you know, and I pass it to my son to read that Ikigai book. You know, and I have explained that four-circle Venn diagram. I passed it to my son to read that Ikigai book and I have explained that four-circle Venn diagram to other people.
Speaker 1:It actually looks a bit like the three-circle Venn diagram called Stockdale Paradox by Jim Collins, so it was similar Because that Stockdale Paradox, the hedgehog concept, talks about what you are good at, what you are passionate about and what is your economic engine. It's quite similar to the four circle Venn diagram. So I always thought that was the four, that was Ikigai. But somehow, by divine providence, Ikigai tribe came up, you know, and then I read about it and then you said that it has nothing to do with the four-circle Venn diagram. I think many people who build their Ikigai beliefs on the four-circle Venn diagram, when you tell them it's not the four-circle Venn diagram, their world collapsed. Now they have nothing to hold on to. That's not Ikigai. Then what is Ikigai? So actually, that got me really really very interested and that's how I contacted you. I wanted to do the program. I was dying to do the program, you know, and then we started and, of course, the rest is history.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, thank you for joining the program, and then you came up with this term some months after finishing the program, Obviously after you digested it all. We went through quite a lot of content and you use this as a guiding principle of your business when you talk to your clients about their future and wealth management. So how did this term Ikigai Decisions come to you and what does it involve?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm really very excited to find out that actually life decisions, they are Ikigai decisions and for a long time people asked me about life decisions but I don't have a concrete framework to give them handles on thinking what are their life decisions? And in the past I always thought that life decision no S is that one single purpose that you must have. It must be a big purpose that you align your life to that one single purpose that you must have. It must be a big purpose that you align your life to that one purpose. But that's so difficult, nick, and you know it right, because not many people know what is that one single purpose in their lives and sometimes I find I do more harm than good because people go away thinking like something must be wrong with me, how come I don't have that single purpose.
Speaker 1:But when I found out about Ikigai and the sources of Ikigai the Myakko Kamiya flower, the seven to eight sources of Ikigai that gave a real framework.
Speaker 1:And it's very interesting because through the program I've learned that they don't have to be big things. They can be small things, small things in life, they can be drinking. To be big things, they can be small things, small things in life. They can be drinking coffee and enjoying coffee, they can be going to the park for a walk, they can be sending your son to school. These can all be sources of ikigai, and small as people may think of it, but it's a great discovery for me because then I can have this framework to help people make ikigai decisions, because life decisions is really ikigai decisions. And if people can sit down and think about their life and think about, yeah, what are all these things in life that are of value to them, and they know these things, then they can in a better way determine how much money for them to be able to continue to do these Ikigai things in their lives. And so it was very natural for me to change from life decisions to Ikigai decisions.
Speaker 2:And how do your clients respond to this term when you introduce it? Ikigai decisions and, I guess, the idea or philosophy behind it.
Speaker 1:Well, I have not asked them directly how they like it, but even before I introduced Ikigai to them, our clients have already bought into this whole idea of first make life decisions first. And, mind you, they are not poor people. Most of my clients are the high net worth and the ultra high net worth. They have a lot of money but yet they understand the merit of first making life decisions and that's why they are with us. When I graduated from the certified Ikigai tribe coach program, I started doing workshops for my clients and Nick. Every time we send out an invitation workshops for my clients and Nick. Every time we send out an invitation. Every single time I must have done. I can't remember how many workshops I've done for my clients. Now it's full. It's like full in a few days. So people are very interested in this whole idea of Ikigai.
Speaker 1:I feel that I haven't done justice in delivering the workshop at a quality that I wish I can and I'm improving on it, but yet with the limited experience with the workshop being not so good. Each time when we end the workshop, people come to me and they thank me. I have people coming to me in tears telling me that they are very grateful that whatever I've shared about the Ikigai affirms their belief. I have clients who not many, but they make big decisions to change their life after that workshop. We have people who decide to retire sorry to the employers, but they quit and they retire and pursue the Ikigai. So thank you. I mean I learned all these things from you. I wouldn't have been able to do these things without understanding it from your teachings. Obviously, I'm still learning. I don't think I'm deep enough yet, yeah, but I think the world is a better place when people understand what Ikigai truly is about.
Speaker 2:I agree, chris, and thank you for sharing that. And I think you know you're an amazing person and clearly, from what you're doing I mean not just these workshops but the work you do your clients trust you. You've had this impact and you're changing their lives. So that's yes. It's so wonderful to hear, especially when my students use this concept and get some significant results for other people. But you were a very good student, so you know. I've listened to your podcast, so you have your own podcast show and you're not just sharing Ikigai, you're sharing other terms like Gambaru so to do one's best Yutori, this idea of space and ibasho concepts we went through in the program. So when I think of Gambaru like people who persist, do their best, you know I think of you. So you've done Gambaru like you've worked very hard for the past 35 years and I guess it goes back to this idea of work ethic. So you've had success, but you still continue to work hard. Why is that so? Do you think it is? You have this love for serving others and helping others.
Speaker 1:I think in my industry we don't understand the importance of our job. I said we, and I don't mean everyone. Obviously there are people who understand, but generally in the industry I don't think we understand the importance and the sacredness of our job. We are not an industry that just sells product and help people make more money. Whatever we do impacts generations. We are not managing monies, we are actually responsible for lives. And if we give people wrong advice, the impact to them, they don't realize it until 10, 20 years later, and by then it would be too late, right? Because money is an enabler of dreams, of aspirations dreams of parents, aspirations of parents for their children, dreams of the second half of their life pursuing their ikigai. And so I think if we realize the importance of the job, then we want to make sure that every single advice that leaves the firm must be of top quality, and in order to do that, it requires a lot of hard work, it requires a lot of diligence, it requires a lot of responsibility and seriousness, and I'm the founder and the CEO of the firm. I have to lead by example, right? And if I don't show that by example, I don't role model it for my people, then the people will not understand how serious it is. So I continue to work very hard because of that and also, I'm 55 now, you know, not too old, but not too young either. I'm at a stage of succession planning and I need to make sure that the next generation that takes over the senior leaders they have the same DNA, they understand the responsibility, and that takes a lot of effort to groom them to become leaders that has got the provident DNA. I've also got obligations to my shareholders, especially the initial few of them, whom they sacrificed a lot to join me. They are also around my age and I need to make sure that by the time they exit from the firm, they all leave with a reasonable reward to take care of themselves. And I feel that burden as a leader to make sure that all these things happen the clients are taken care of, the employees get taken care of and the shareholders get taken care of. That requires a lot of hard work. The shareholders get taken care of. That requires a lot of hard work.
Speaker 1:And the other thing that I have been thinking a lot about in the recent two years is the kind of organization that Provident wants to be. Can we speed up our growth. If I push everybody very, very hard. Yes, we can, but do I want to do it to a point whereby they cannot live out their ikigai decisions? Then I'll be a hypocrite preaching ikigai, but the people in the firm are not having ikigai. These are some of the reasons that I work very hard and hopefully, by the time I leave the firm and retire, I look back and I say, yes, you know, I fulfilled my obligations, I've done my best. And when I see my maker, my maker will say that you know, I'm proud of what you have done for the firm.
Speaker 2:I'm sure he's already proud, so I don't think you have anything to worry about. I'm proud to know you and yeah, I mean I probably would say maybe you, specifically you, chris worked too hard, or at least you have for many decades. Yeah, maybe I think you realized you, probably even before we talked about this word, you lacked. You taught this idea of space and room to have I think it was you who coined this, and so now I use it. This is how you described it To have room, to have peace of mind. I think it's a really articulate way of describing utori this idea of elbow room, space or room to have peace of mind. So do you have this now, or can you not help yourself and do you still keep working hard?
Speaker 1:I think I'm recovering from the lack of utori. I cannot say I have it now, but it's much better than before. But I think that's an area of my life that requires still a lot of improvement. I go for a lot more trips now with my wife. I go for holidays with my wife, not just work, and when I'm working I bring my wife along so that we can spend some time together. I take more breaks now in the weekend to have my space. Yeah, but I honestly tell you I struggle Even in that time, that space that I give myself. You know, you taught us in Uteri that you set aside time to do nothing. You don't have to set aside time to do more things, right, you set aside time sometimes just to do nothing. It's challenging for me. My mind just wandered off, you know, and I got to try and bring myself back. So it's a challenge for me, but at least there's a realization that I lack it and I'm lacking of it and I'm making progress to improve that area in my life.
Speaker 2:It's challenging, but I had some utopia this morning. So I had a physio at 9.15 and usually I'm up pretty early already on the computer and I kind of woke up a little bit late. I was thinking, oh, I've got half an hour, I'll get on the computer and start doing some emails. And then I said, no, no, don't, don't rush yourself, just have a cup of coffee and just stand and drink it in the kitchen and do nothing else and just drink it slowly. And so, yeah, I was able to relax and then I could walk slowly to the physio, because he's just around the corner.
Speaker 2:And yeah, if I had chosen the other option, I know I would have done the emails, I would have pressured myself and then I would have left late and then I'd sort of be running out the door. So, even just a little bit, where you kind of listen to your intuition and think, oh no, I won't, I won't start now, I'll stop, I'll pause, and yeah, you kind of feel relaxed, you have this room, this break, and you don't get into that state of one thing after the other where you're constantly rushed. So, yeah, even if it's 10 minutes, half an hour, I guess it's almost like a type of self-care where you're just giving yourself time to pause and breathe and sort of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's why you're the master, nick. That's why you're the master. Yeah, I'm not so sensitive to my intuition, I just go on and on and on. But I got to learn that I've got to give myself permission. Like you, I enjoy my tea and the minute I sit down in front of my computer I turn the computer and I drink my tea and work. I should learn not to do anything but just drink tea. So I'm recovering. I'll say that I have improved, but obviously not up to your level. But I'll get there somehow I'm sure you will.
Speaker 2:and another quality of you, I think, is you know you're very honest, you care. I think working with or for you would be a privilege, because I think you create this e-bashel, yeah, this, this safe space, a space where people can communicate freely, but you also create I'm sure you create hope and a bright future for your staff, your clients, but you obviously do this with integrity and honesty. So that was a word we covered and it is a sub-theory of Ikigai and it's become a psychological term, this idea of Ibaisho. So would you say that's the goal of your workplace to make it an Ibaisho goal of your workplace to make it an e-bashall?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it has always been my aspiration that the workplace is a different kind of workplace that we always hear of. Some people say that you cannot call your workplace your family. I challenge this. I strongly believe that the workplace is a corporate family. So what's the difference? Or rather, how do we define a corporate family? So what's the difference? Or rather, how do we define a corporate family? Well, I think a corporate family is one whereby people find it safe to be able to share openly without feeling that they will be judged. It is a place where we extend grace. It is a place where we extend forgiveness. It is a place where we extend love.
Speaker 1:Sure, there are KPIs to be met, but it is not what we achieve, but how we go about achieving the KPIs that are important. So I have always been focusing on that with my people. I've kept reminding them that we have a target, whilst I'm happy that we hit the target and I am unhappy that if we miss the target. But it is the how that is more important. If we hit the target and we do it properly, with love, with grace, with forgiveness. I'm happy If we miss the target, but we have done our very best. I'm happy as well.
Speaker 1:So that's the concept that, you know, we have been advocating to the people and I know that of course, we are not a perfect workplace, but I know that in the way we are at Nibasho, because every year, nick, we have an annual retreat, we take the people offsite and on the final night of our five days retreat, we get everybody to sit around in a circle and people share and every year, without fail, people share authentically.
Speaker 1:They share about their families, they share about their struggles with work. People share authentically, they share about their families, they share about their struggles with work and, mind you, the bosses are all there, but everybody is sharing their work. The bosses are sharing their own challenges as well. They lead by example, by being vulnerable. There are always tears shared in that final meeting, right? So that finale night we call it, and so I know that at some level we have created an IBA show for the people. But again I want to say we are not perfect, right, we have our weaknesses and all that. But I think the people here know what we are trying to achieve and now that we are about 62 people strong, it's getting harder and harder to do that. But everybody knows that's what we want to do and we are all trying very hard to do that.
Speaker 2:Love it. I'm not surprised. I think you've always tried to create an e-bashall since you started the business, so I'm sure it's a joy to work for and with you, even with the challenges that come with work and dealing with money. So on the subject of money generally, we don't relate money to Ikigai, but it does enable us, as you mentioned earlier, to have our dreams to our hobbies and whatnot. So how can we create or use wealth to have more Ikigai?
Speaker 1:in our life. I think it is very important to realize that money is important. Right, because without money, you cannot do many things in this world. Right? And some of our ikigai needs more money. Some of our ikigai, we don't need money at all. Some of our ikigai decisions require us to have more time instead of making money. Right? So, like I said, the first thing to do is to sit down, deliberate, contemplate and list out all the ikigai decisions that you have to make, right, and then you look at your finances right, for those ikigai decisions that you make that need money. Work out your finances to make sure that you know you can achieve it. If not now, you know when you can achieve it.
Speaker 1:Right, for some of those ikigai decisions that you know that if you stay in this job, you are never going to be able to do it. Right? I know of people who want to go to Japan and buy an IKEA, you know, and they want to stay there and they want to maybe make it into a cafe and all that. That requires them to leave the current job and go there. That may require them to have no income for a period of time. And then you work out your finances. You may have to cut down some expenses for you to be able to sustain yourself while you are cleaning up the IKEA and you are trying to rebuild it. So that's how money gets involved, because the world works on money. Right, you need financial resources, but first be very clear exactly what you are trying to achieve, and then you make those financial decisions, whether to save more or to cut down more. To achieve your Ikigai decisions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, money is like energy in a way, something you manage and use sparingly, and then you might use a lot, but direct it at the right thing, make it sustainable. So that's a good way to frame money in the context of Ikigai. So, outside of work, chris, what are some of your Ikigai sources?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so every week I will go to a place it's sort of like a city club which I join. That's my Iba show, actually. I go there. I know the bartender, I sit down, I have a glass of Prosecco, I will order my oysters and I sit there and I just relax and I just talk to the people. That's my Ibasho.
Speaker 1:Those are the things that I do that, to me, is worth doing. Of course, I enjoy wine a lot. I enjoy the history of wine more than the drinking of the wine, so I like to buy wine and read about it. You know the different grapes, and so that gives me a lot of joy, gives me a lot of relaxation. I love to read, I listen to music, I exercise three to four times a week. So all these things I do outside of work I just enjoy over the weekend to do nothing. On a Saturday morning, usually I go for breakfast with my family. That's probably the only time that I can have a meal with my adult kids. They're hardly at home during the weekday. Yeah, so these are things that I truly find joy doing, and now I can have a name for it. I know that's my Ikigai. It's what I do that's worth doing.
Speaker 2:Well, there we go so, living a good life, family, enjoy your work. You're serving others, you have a little bit of wine here and there, a lot of wine actually, but a healthy relationship.
Speaker 2:So you enjoy the history. Yeah, it's a real pleasure to know you, Chris. So how I mean? Yeah, it really seems you embraced Ikigai and the certification program and you're using it professionally and it sounds like it's impacting your clients and having a significant impact on them. So, yeah, how was taking the Ikigai Tribe Coach certification and did you think you'd get so much out of it? And did you think you'd get so much out of it?
Speaker 1:I mean, I was thinking about this question and I'll say that you know, this program made a huge impact in my life and, in turn, made a huge impact to many other people whom I share Ikigai with. It is a program that I encourage people to go. The program says it's a coaching program, but even if you don't want to be a coach, even if you don't want to be like me and do workshops you know and all that I would say go for the knowledge, go for the experience. Understand what Ikigai is all about. The thing about Ikigai is it's a Japanese concept and for people who are English speaking, it's difficult to learn it from a Japanese because you have trouble understanding their language and even if they speak English, sometimes you have trouble understanding them. But I mean, in this program I'm so glad that it is in English I mean, the biggest benefit is you read those things in Japanese because you understand Japanese right and you are able to translate it for us in English. Yeah, so I would say go for the program, even if you don't want to be a coach. Learn about Ikigai.
Speaker 1:Read the book that you have written. I know now you have two books, right? I've not read the second one. Yet I have read the first book, ikigai Kan. It's like a textbook for our course right. I it's like a textbook for our course right. I would say read it, you are not going to regret it. It is going to change your life. It's going to give you a reason for your life. So I strongly encourage people to attend it.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, Chris. Yeah, and I really appreciate you embracing it and using it to such great impact. I'll have to come and visit you now and maybe have some wine and oysters or something.
Speaker 1:Please come to Singapore, although you know Australia. You have one of the best oysters around. You know it's fresh in Australia, but the time it comes to Singapore they're either dead or half dead, so they are not so fresh. But well, I welcome you to Singapore and host you and bring you to places you want to go. Thank, you.
Speaker 2:So people might be listening to this episode, thinking oh, maybe I should speak to Chris about my finances, have Chris help me make some ikigai decisions? So how can people reach out to you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they can just email me at chris underscore tan C-H-R-I-S. Chris underscore tan T-A-N at provident, my company's name, dot com. So that's Chris underscore Tan at Provident dot com.
Speaker 2:Right and we'll link to your website. Thank you and your profile. So yeah, it's been a joy, chris, catching up. It's always good to see you, so I'm glad I've returned the favor and had you on as a guest, and I wish you success in your transition and all the work you do, and also in your family life.
Speaker 1:Thank you, nick. I'm sure we will remain in touch. Oh, we will for sure.
Speaker 2:So yeah, absolutely Thanks, my friend. Thank you. Thank you, nick.