The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
The Rolefulness Book: Why We Wrote It and What We Hope It Brings You
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick welcomes back Daiki Kato to explore their new book on rolefulness—a concept that empowers people to live more intentionally by embracing meaningful roles in everyday life.
We tend to focus on goals like earning money and success in the business, in our society, but I think role-focused life is very important for our mental health, keeping mental health. Based on the idea, we introduced specific rolefulness into the book. Into the book, specific rolefulness is the satisfaction that arises when you inhabit roles in ways that are distinctly your own, shaped by your personality, values and vision ikigai-tribecom.
Speaker 2:On this episode of the Ikigai podcast, Professor Daiki Kato returns to celebrate and discuss the launch of Rolefulness, a guide to purposeful living, a book we co-authored. Wonderful to have you back on the podcast, Daiki.
Speaker 1:Thank you for inviting me today and I'm very happy to talk with you again. Thank you, Nick.
Speaker 2:My pleasure, mate, so it's always good to see you and we've become really good friends actually over the past two years. So in October of 2022, wow I had you as a guest on episode 47, the Impact of Rolefulness on Ikigai, with Professor Daiki Kato so if you haven't listened to that episode, please do and the concept of rolefulness really inspired me. And then, about nine months later, so about two years ago, I approached you with the idea of writing a book. Together, we met in Brisbane to discuss the idea of the book, and here we are now launching the book. So how do you feel, daiki?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was very happy when you sent me the message. I thought the sense of role was quite specific in Japanese culture, but I knew that many people in other countries were interested in the concept of rolefulness and it made me so happy.
Speaker 2:That's good. So, yeah, I was very excited and I was really hopeful you would say yes. So we essentially created roles for us to write this book co-authors. So we lived a new type of rolefulness as we wrote the book together.
Speaker 1:Yes, the book project gives us new wonderful roles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe we will write another book together.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We should touch on the meaning of rolefulness again. So how do you define rolefulness, daiki?
Speaker 1:meaning of rolefulness again. So how do you define rolefulness, daiki? Yes, rolefulness is defined as the ongoing sense of role satisfaction experienced in daily life.
Speaker 2:Yes, ongoing sense of role satisfaction. So it's like a feeling that you experience in daily life and you've written on rolefulness several times doing research papers. So what was it like for you to go from writing research papers to co-authoring a book?
Speaker 1:At first we started to write research papers on rolefulness because I thought academic evidence was important for the new psychological concept, lawfulness. After writing papers, I believed that this evidence could be applied for our daily lives and writing a book in more friendly words was important for many readers.
Speaker 2:I agree. So I think it's very hard to maybe read but also write academic papers. There's a lot of citations, a lot of, I guess, jargon. So presenting this book in an easy language was lots of fun, but you've actually written a book on rolefulness in Japanese that you co-authored with Dr Mikie Suzuki.
Speaker 1:Yes, Dr Suzuki and I wrote the rolefulness book. In Japan, researchers, teachers and many other professionals read the book and I'm happy to hear their positive impressions for Japanese book yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, it's definitely a universal concept. This idea of rolefulness is something we all feel. We all have roles, so we should perhaps start with a definition. How do we define role, daiki?
Speaker 1:Yes, let's talk about the definition of roles. A role is a pattern of behavior expressed within a social context that becomes meaningful when it reflects one's authentic self.
Speaker 2:Yes, so this is our definition in the book. This is what we're saying should be a role in the book. This is what we're saying should be a role. That, of course, it's pattern of behavior expressed in a specific social context, but what's important is it's meaningful and it reflects your authentic self. It's essentially being yourself in a context of role, being Yourself in a Context of Role, and we essentially start the book, or we delve into the book, with the idea of role distress, and it can pop up in so many different ways.
Speaker 1:So shall we touch on this a bit Daiki role distress yeah, it's something I think a lot of people experience without necessarily having a name for it. We outline a few key aspects like role strain, that feeling of being pulled in too many directions just trying to meet the expectations of one role.
Speaker 2:Yes, so that's role strain. Then we have role conflict, which is when the demands of different roles we have clash with each other. For example, trying to be a dedicated employee and a present parent at the same time can sometimes be challenging and you have this conflict.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and let's not forget role confusion that his area, where the lines between different roles we play just aren't clear. It can be quite unsettling.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and similar to role confusion is role ambiguity, where you're in a role but you're just not sure what's actually expected of you. This happens often in the workplace, maybe when someone's starting a new job and it can lead to a lot of anxiety.
Speaker 1:Definitely and I think many people can relate to role overload, simply having too much or too many roles to juggle at once- Absolutely.
Speaker 2:So yes, role distress was a term we came up with to describe all these common ideas about roles, to describe all these common ideas about roles. So role strain, role conflict, role confusion, role ambiguity and, of course, role overload. And, as you said, I think most people have role overload even in one role. They can just be overburdened with that commitment and spending too much time working is usually the problem with role overload. And these were the reasons why we felt compelled to write the book. We thought we want to increase rolefulness in society today. So I guess rolefulness is an answer to these problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's so true To some degree. We all experienced that during COVID, didn't we?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we're talking about rolelessness. I should have mentioned that. So, yeah, we have all these problems. And then one of the reasons we wrote the book was because we saw this increase in rolelessness in society and, interestingly, daiki, when we did our research, rolelessness existed in other papers, but rolefulness didn't, so you really did coin the term and, as you said, this is something we saw during COVID this rolelessness and I think we're also seeing it stemming from advancements in, obviously, technology, but also recently in AI and it's a whole new dimension to consider.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so it is, and Japan has its own form of lawlessness, in a way, with hikikomori. So the world of hikikomori is a quite important problem in Japan. Hikikomori those who withdraw from social interaction and traditional roles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some people might know hikikomori some of our listeners but if you don't know what it is, it's where essentially young men. But if you don't know what it is, it's where essentially young men boys or young men, I guess, teenage boys or men decide they don't want to participate in society and they decide to stay in their bedrooms, so they usually live with their parents, and this has been going on since the 70s. So now you have men, in their 50s in some cases, who spent 20, 30 years as hikikomori, as people who essentially lock themselves in their rooms. Some of them don't even engage with their family and they live completely alone, probably just communicating with the outside world online or playing games or surfing the internet and big problem. But it's also it's not just restricted to Japan anymore. There's hikikomori cases in Korea, china, america, australia, parts of Europe, so it's becoming a global problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as you mentioned, so about 10 years ago or 20 years ago. So the most of hikikomori people were young men and, yeah, as you said, so, now the problem is really expanded, so not only young men, so more elder people or the young women, and, yeah, the problem is really complex and changing. So, yeah, it is reflected, the culture or society and yeah, so, as you said, so it's not problem not only in japan and it's a very international problem and the lawfulness and lawlessness and the problem is, I think so they are really connected to each other and it's a very big problem and we have to think about how to support the people in the situation of hikikomori.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely it's. It's fascinating because these men I mean most of them are men who should be working, and so it's. It's several million men not working in Japan, which is a good chunk of the male workforce just living at home, and I've read papers where they're calling it the 50-80 problem, like it's a problem within Hikikomori, where these men are now 50, they've spent 30 years living at their home and their parents are 80 and they're elderly and these men have no skills or no social skills. They don't have any money to help look after their parents and, yeah, the government was saying this is like another problem, so perhaps rolefulness would be a solution. But, yeah, on the flip side to these problems of social withdrawal, there's also role captivity, where you feel stuck in a role you don't want, and obviously that can be, yeah, just a really frustrating, unpleasant way to live your life. It it's usually work-related, but obviously can include relationships.
Speaker 1:I think role captivity is a really important thing, which brings us to what we see as the answer is rolefulness.
Speaker 2:That's right. This is the answer, I think, daiki, and as we mentioned, we've written a book on this and that's available, actually, on Amazon. So if you're listening to this and you're interested in our book, you can go to Amazon. So let's talk about the book. We touched on this in our last episode, breaking rolefulness down into social and internal aspects. So let's recap that for our listeners. Do you want to touch on that, daiki?
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, social rolefulness really refers to that sense of satisfaction and belonging we get from our relationships and social groups we are part of. It's about feeling valued and connected.
Speaker 2:Right. And then internal rolefulness, in contrast, is more about the personal identity, the confidence and the inner satisfaction that comes from feeling like you're fulfilling your roles in a way that aligns with who you are. So you've written papers on this. Basically, social rolefulness comes first through interactions with others, and then you internalize that, giving you confidence, self-esteem and inner satisfaction. And then one of the themes in our book, daiki, was this idea of a role-focused life over a goal-focused life. Do you want to touch on that?
Speaker 1:We tend to focus on goals like earning money and success in the business, in our society, but I think role-focused life is very important for our mental health, keeping mental health. Based on the idea, we introduced specific rolefulness into the book. Specific rolefulness is the satisfaction that arises when you inhabit roles in ways that are distinctly your own, shaped by your personality. Distinctly your own, shaped by your personality, values and vision. For the book, we created the role framework. Can you introduce that? And what about mutual role compatibility?
Speaker 2:Sure Daiki. So we should mention yeah, as we wrote the book, these ideas about role came up, and so your theory of rolefulness, which includes the idea of fulfilling your roles, all your roles, basically through greetings, having conversations and expressing gratitude, is what we ended up calling general rolefulness. Yeah, and so you can have a sense of rolefulness just going down to the cafe. You greet the staff, they greet you, you have a friendly chat, they ask about your maybe your work, your kids, you ask about work, how they're going, and then you have your coffee and then you leave and you express gratitude. So that's an example of general rolefulness and that's sort of one of the foundations of your theory. It's not tied to specific role, it's this general sense of rolefulness. And then, as we wrote the book, we realized, of course, specific roles are important and the role framework is a way for you and the role framework is a way for you to best fulfill that role. No-transcript. And so our roles give us opportunities, obviously, to express our values and meet our own needs. It's really also important to consider how our approach to these roles affects the people around us. So we want to ensure not only that they serve us, but they align with the expectations of others, and this is kind of where the idea of this mutual role compatibility came from. So this requires discussion and almost some sort of negotiation between you and the person you deliver the role to.
Speaker 2:So an example would be as a father, when my son was younger, we were very playful, we used to hug and I used to tickle him and piggyback and all this very playful stuff. Now he's 21. So I'm not hugging him, we're not doing piggybacking, even though I try. So that's not appropriate. It probably makes him feel uncomfortable. So now we engage differently. We talk, we have this playful banter, we watch sport together, we make jokes, and this is how I fulfill my role and it's also how he fulfills his role as a son. So we've got this common ground and so, yeah, we refer to this common ground as mutual role compatibility. It's very similar to this idea of love languages. People sometimes have different ways of expressing love and they feel out of alignment and it's only once they understand each other's love. Languages do they connect? So it's similar to that idea. Languages do they connect, so it's similar to that idea. We want to make sure what we offer others is compatible with them, and this dynamic alignment between how we see our role and how others experience.
Speaker 1:It is really important yeah, thank you, and I agree, completely agree with your idea and our role and the sense of rolefulness is quite connected with other person and it is based on the interrelationships. And so you talked about the relationship between your son and you. And so, yeah, your son grew up and the relationship, the style of relationship between your son and you are changing gradually, and so in each stage there are very important mutual relationships. You, yeah, and yeah, me too. So I have two sons and they are growing up, and so our relationship is changing. But I think that the enjoy relationship and finding roles in each stage is really important.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's very simple.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, you taught that the three things are very important Conversation and showing gratitude and greetings. It's a very simple way for family or friends or colleagues in every relationship. So the very simple interpersonal relationships and enjoy the very small and simple role is a very important way to increase rolefulness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, I think it's interesting because we have this idea of general rolefulness which you coined and you have the theory rolefulness, greetings, conversation and then expressing gratitude. But then we yeah, we have this specific rolefulness which we can still apply a general rolefulness to, so we can greet our colleagues at work, have a conversation and thank them. We can do that with family, but with the specific roles where the relationships are deeper, I think we do need this social intelligence to have role compatibility, mutual role compatibility, and I think this is where you have all these problems.
Speaker 2:In relationships, People have expectations.
Speaker 2:A good example are married couples who end up divorcing because they don't probably discuss their roles and they misunderstand each other or they misinterpret how love is expressed and they don't sit down and say hang on, this is my idea of being a husband, but what do you want from me as a husband? And maybe what my wife wants from me as a husband is different to my idea of being a husband, and then she can offer the same. She can say, oh, what do you want from me as a wife? And then she can offer the same. She can say, oh, what do you want from me as a wife?
Speaker 2:You know, in my role as a wife and we could have that discussion and get clarity. But of course, people don't talk like this, they just complain or they point out problems. So this type of social intelligence and discussion is something we write about in the book, and it's usually something intuitive, like from experience you understand each other. But because there are so many relationship problems, communication is key, and so understanding each other's expectations and understanding each individual's idea of role really requires communication, and so we write about that in the book. And then there's also another type of rolefulness we explored in the book, which is unique rolefulness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as you said. So I think that both general lawfulness and unique lawfulness is very important. For example, the friend or the couples or the colleagues. We have our original sense of laws and so it is different.
Speaker 1:Perhaps my sense of law and, nick, your sense of role is a little different, but we are good friends and so, of course, we have some gaps about how to recognize our roles, but we communicate with each other and spend a very good time together each other and spending a very good time together, and so I respect your sense and you also respect my sense about roles, and so that's kind of establishing good relationships and respect the sense of role of others is very important. Trust or respect others is a very important thing, and so if we have any role gaps yeah, we had good relationships and respectful relationships so we can maintain the gaps and do together, and so I think it's no problem. Yeah, and based on that viewpoint, the think about, or the respect about, each unique rolefulness or the general rolefulness is very important. So let's expand our discussion, uh, to the topic of unique rolefulness. So can you speak a little more about the concept of unique rolefulness, nick?
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean, before I do, one thing I want to say, daiki is, writing this book with you was actually very easy and you come from an academic background and this was your concept. You coined it, it rolefulness and you were very generous and kind to you know, trust me, share, share the concept with me, and it was my idea to write the book. So I approached you. So maybe a lot of people would be, I don't know, defensive or probably they would have said no, but you were really open and then through the process, through collaboration, all these other years about rolefulness came up and so that I think that added to the book. So in a way, writing this book together provided you and me with a unique role. You're coming from obviously a different culture, academic background. You'd done all this research and I came with obviously someone not from really an academic background, but I could help you explain your concept to, obviously to a Western audience and make it more, I guess, readable, and then through that process, other ideas popped up. So a unique role can be something like that where it's maybe project-based and you have this unique role and in our case we were supporting each other.
Speaker 2:Or often we want a unique role in life. And your unique role in life is to discover how you want to use your life and pursue it with intention, and this is guided by your values. It's attuned to your intuition. Guided by your values, it's attuned to your intuition and, yeah, it really involves commitment to doing the work once that role becomes clear. And so this is something a lot of people don't find, because a lot of people don't know themselves. We get trapped on the hamster wheel. People don't know themselves. We get trapped on the hamster wheel. We go to work, we come home. But some of us do want this unique role and it requires introspection. I think you need some life experience and then you eventually work out ah, this is my role, this is my personal mission, it feels right, it's aligned to my values and, yeah, I'm willing to commit to the work. I will spend a lot of time on this role. And even if the personal mission seems like a goal, you still need the role to help you achieve the goal.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's something we explored in the book too, this idea of unique rolefulness. We offer examples and we offer a way for you to uncover your unique role. So it's interesting we went from rolefulness, which we then kind of identified as general rolefulness. We looked at specific rolefulness. We all have multiple roles and they're specific to us. We looked at things like mutual role compatibility. We have your rolefulness scale, we have the role framework. So all these helpful tools, so all these helpful tools. And it was quite a challenge knowing when to stop writing, because we want the book to be easy to read and helpful, and I think we achieved that goal. So thank you, daiku, for trusting me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you very much, mo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm really happy that the first time you contacted me and I joined your Ikigai podcast, and so, yeah, after that, about two years ago, we saw in person in Brisbane, and so at that time, so my family and I visited Brisbane for work, and so we stayed for a week in Brisbane, and so you are living so far, but you come to Brisbane for me, and so my family and I are very happy that we could see you, and so at the time we talked about this book project and so, yeah, about two years, but finally, so we did it and now I'm very happy, and so, through the journey to writing book with you, I could find my new roles, many new roles, yeah, so now I'm working at the university and having some classes and doing some research, and it's my, that's my role, and I thought I'm really satisfied with them and I thought I was very happy.
Speaker 1:But after I started the new project with you, so recording some podcast series for RollerFriends podcast or making a homepage to tell our ideas to people all over the world and writing new books, and so, yeah, it's a quite new experience for me and it's very exciting for me. So it's my first challenge and so through the activities I found my new roles and new aspects of me, so my new demands or the new satisfactions are uncovered, and so it's a very happy experience for me. And, yeah, it's quite new and unique for me, and so I really believe that that kind of unique new roles make me more happy and more satisfied with my life. And so, yeah, thank you, nick.
Speaker 2:It's my pleasure, it was a real joy. I remember when we met and I was so excited to show you the role framework. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:I remember the cafe and then all these ideas and, yeah, it was challenging. You know, we had to write the book and it's not easy, you know, running a book. So that's another really positive aspect of a role if it's challenging and it's meaningful. You know, this is probably how I would relate it to Ikigai. You know, from the, from this role, probably the most important thing is this new friendship we now share. So we're good friends.
Speaker 2:We had this challenging idea of you know, exciting but also challenging of writing the book, supporting each other, offering different, you know, offering our strengths in different ways, and it's a reality now. So it made me realize, yeah, you can create a role and it always involves some form of collaboration. Create a role to help others, support others, or, in our case, I guess, we create a roles to produce something, to produce this book. And, yeah, for me to dyke, it was. It's been a really wonderful experience. It's given me a lot of happiness and joy and I'm very look, I'm, yeah, looking forward to seeing you next month when we have our little book launch at your university.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, it's my pleasure and, yeah, I'm very happy to hear that. So, yeah, and I'm looking forward to seeing you in Japan soon. And so through this book project we found many new concepts. So at first, so, uh, I did some research about lawfulness and originally so, uh, I imagine, about social lawfulness and internal lawfulness. Uh, nick and I were writing book and we discussed many times and we found many other ideas. So can I introduce the audience to one of our new ideas? Sure, sure, nick found a very interesting idea and I'm very interested about it, and so it's a concept of knowfulness. So that's a quite new idea. So I hope perhaps many audience are very interested in it. What is knowfulness? So, nick, can you introduce this idea of knowfulness? Sure, daiki.
Speaker 2:So, yes, this I mean it just came to me as I was writing the book, but it is inspired by knowfulness, so I should thank you, daiki.
Speaker 2:I would not think of knowfulness, had I not written this book with you and I thought, yeah, knowfulness, so saying no, and it's this idea of setting boundaries by saying no to others and, rather than feel guilty, you feel liberated and satisfied, which is really important. Yeah, you feel liberated and satisfied because you are living true to yourself and it can be very hard to say no to others, with expectations and societal pressure. But we should all feel the freedom to say no when what is being asked of us doesn't align to our values or when, for whatever reason, we just don't want to do something. It doesn't feel right. So it's actually really liberating when others are intentionally or unintentionally trying to take advantage of you. So it's almost like a superpower If you can say no and you don't feel guilty, you think no, this is right, I'm just going to say no.
Speaker 2:And it just doesn't mean you say no to something. It can also mean you make the decision not to do something, like responding to a text or an email or answering the phone. If it's not right, if you don't want to talk to that person, if you don't want to reply to the email, you just say to yourself no, I'm not going to do that. So, in short, knowfulness is the feeling of liberation and satisfaction you experience when you take control and say no to the requests, expectations or demands of others or society in general.
Speaker 2:Now, of course, the way you communicate this is important, and it depends on context. You can say no with compassion. Sometimes you might have to say it with firmness, but always be respectful and you don't ever have to feel that you have to explain yourself. You're just expressing yourself and yeah. You can just say things like no, thank you, I'm not interested, or no, what you're asking, it doesn't suit me or it's not aligned to my values, and I know this is a big problem in Japan. So maybe this would also be a good book for Japanese, like if we wrote a book on knowfulness, which we might do, because Japanese really struggle with this idea of no. They can't even say no. They have other expressions, like you know, ちょっと難しい, like oh, that's a little difficult. So it is very hard to say no in general, but I think it's harder for Japanese. Would I be right about that?
Speaker 1:Yes. So yeah, I completely agree with your idea. So in Japanese culture, including me, so many people feel that, so guilty when we say no to others. Yeah, so in many situations so like in the relationship with friends, or in the work, the relationship with colleagues, or in the work, the relationship with colleagues so, yeah, many Japanese people feel guilty when we have to say no to them. But I think that that kind of feeling is really connected with lawfulness. So if we don't have lawfulness, we don't have lawfulness, we don't have confidence to myself, and so if we don't have confidence, it's difficult to say yes or no to others so directly. So, but if we have lawfulness and confidence, we can easily tell my own opinion to others or say no to others. So, yeah, I think lawfulness and knowfulness is quite connected to each other and both aspects are very important, especially in Japanese cultures.
Speaker 1:That kind of sense is really important and yeah so I'm very interested in the concept of knowfulness, and so it's a very new idea, but it's very interesting for the concept of the academic researches and it's also a very friendly and easy world to understand. And so, yeah, let's success our new project.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so happy to share that with you. Definitely, and I mean it came from this idea of boundaries we set in our roles. We have a role, we have more than one role, we have multiple roles and maybe, going back to those problems, you know, role conflict, role overload all those things happen when we don't have boundaries and often the boundary is just saying no. And so, yeah, I think no fullness, framing no as no fullness makes it lighter, makes it easier, especially if you think, oh, this is me being honest or being true, this is how I best serve people. If I say yes to this, I serve people. If I say no to this, I'm serving people because I'm not doing something that I don't want to do.
Speaker 2:And if you don't want to do something and you still say yes, you're not going to do your best work. You're going to have this negativity. Negative feelings could lead to resentment. And it made me realize that Ikigai is about working out what you want to say yes to and what you want to say no to, because you want to say yes to things that are meaningful, that give you a sense of purpose, that give you life satisfaction, that connect you to others in a meaningful way, and then you want to say no to things that are not in line with your values, that you're not interested in, or maybe you just don't have the strengths, they're not aligned to your strengths. They can still be positive things, but you've got to know this suits me, this doesn't suit me. I can use my strengths in these, or I can't. Or, yeah, this is not aligned to me, I'm not the right person. So, yeah, who knows, maybe no fullness will become a psychological concept.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But today we're talking about rolefulness, so we shouldn't get off track, Nike. So rolefulness it's our new book. We've worked two years on this and two years sounds like a lot of time, but we were. We were doing this role in between our other roles and, yeah, we're very excited. So, if you're looking for rolefulness in your life and it really is a guide to purposeful living, we've written it for you and it's now available on amazon. Yeah, so you can purchase the book on amazon and we'll be probably updating the book as well as we go, and we'll probably do a few more podcasts on rolefulness. Maybe no fullness. So any final Daiki as we finish up this episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, today. So I'm very happy to talk with you and we can look back our book project. And so when was the last time I joined your Ikigai podcast? So two years ago or more.
Speaker 2:It was October 2022.
Speaker 1:So nearly three years ago, yeah, yeah. So at that time, yeah, it was so excited. And so Nick and I talk about Ikigai and lawfulness and, yeah, the conversation was really interesting for me. And yeah, after that, so these two years, so we discussed each other many times and keeping our good friendship and we could find very new ideas about lawfulness, very new ideas about lawfulness. And so today, yeah, we could look back to our activities and our journey and so, yeah, it was a very happy time for me and I'm very happy that our journey is not end yet and we continue to expand our idea and telling our ideas to more and more people all over the world, and let's continue our project NoFluNess. Maybe I will be able to find more new roles with you and, yeah, it's a very happy time for me today. Thank you very much, nick.
Speaker 2:My pleasure, daiki. No good times ahead. I think next year, when I'm living in Japan, we'll have a lot more rolefulness and it's been a real source of ikigai writing this book with you and, yeah, I really appreciate it, your trust in me, and now we have this wonderful friendship and, yeah, we're collaborators and we've written this book together and we're celebrating it on this episode, but I really appreciate our friendship too, and I'm very happy as well. So, thank you, Daiki.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you very much yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so there you go, guys Rolefulness on Amazon. If you're wanting to find more purpose in your life, or even find your unique role, read our book. Okay, bye, for now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bye, thank you.