The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Finding Clarity Through Zazen with Tosei Shinabe
How can we quiet our minds in a chaotic world?
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Tosei Shinabe about how Zen meditation offers a path to deep contemplation and inner stillness amidst the noise of modern life.
Please note that this episode was recorded mostly in Japanese and I provided on-the-spot translations. Some of my translations might have been incomplete or slightly off the mark, so please keep this in mind. And now let's get started with the episode ikigaitribecom. My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Tosei Shinabe, a Zen Buddhist monk and meditation instructor based in Kyoto, Japan. His journey to monastic life was unconventional, encompassing a law degree, global travels and a career in traditional Kyoto craftsmanship. These experiences deepened his appreciation for the humility and spiritual resonance inherent in Japanese artisanship, ultimately guiding him toward Zen practice. Osho-sama, thank you for joining me today. こちらこそありがとうございます。. Would you like to share a little bit about your background?
Tosei:Okay, my name is Tose Shinabe, please call me Sei, so I am a Zen monk from Kyoto. Now I, how do you say, quit the temple? Oh really, yeah, I not quit. I keep, keep, connect, connecting, but not every day I go to temple. So I teach Zen meditation and we call Zazen everywhere in Japan. Also upload. I decided to become a monk when I was 32 years old, and now I'm 41 years old.
Tosei:So before I became a monk, I was a producer producing Japanese traditional crafts yes, every kind of traditional crafts in Kyoto. Before that, I was working in a newspaper company in Kyoto Kyoto's local newspaper and I I did advertisement. I was university student, so I born in the ordinary family in Japan, not in temple. Yeah, if you want to know about more, please ask me. Sure.
Nick:Yeah, Thank you. So I will call you, say that's okay. Yeah thank you Great. So when you were a teenager, you were a bit of a rebel? Yes, you were a bit of a rebel, but I think through traveling the world, you learned more about life and yourself. Is that correct? Yes, which countries did you travel to?
Tosei:Mainly Southeast Asia. Mainly Southeast Asia because so I start to travel when I was university student, for example, thailand, laos, china, taiwan, hong Kong, korea, north Korea, south Korea, north Korea, india, nepal, holland, america, united States I forgot, but about 20 countries, about 20 countries?
Nick:Yeah, amazing. Do you still travel now Do?
Tosei:you sometimes travel. No, not now, because I quit temple last November. So every day I went to temple, not travel, but now I can do that. So one month ago I was in Seychelles, in Africa, to teach someone the Zen meditation for one week.
Nick:You do travel now? Yeah, and do you enjoy that? Yes, of course Of course.
Tosei:Yes, of course.
Nick:Yes, of course I'm going to read a quote from an interview about when you were young. So here's the quote. I was always out playing in Osaka and I was always rebelling. My teachers would scold me and call my parents. I was always questioning things and I felt that the adults didn't understand. I don't really remember what exactly I was questioning, but one big thing I do remember is the feeling that humans are also part of nature. We are also one of the animals. That's what I always believed, and I didn't understand why other people didn't feel the same way. Yeah, how did you rebel? Did you just stay out late? Did you drink when you were younger? Stay out late.
Tosei:Did you drink when you were younger? Sorry, please say to me in Japanese じゃあ、反抗的だったそうですよね。 はい。 どういうふうに反抗的だった うーん、どういうふうに。 よくわからないんですけど、私も。 yeah, that's right.
Nick:You were just genuinely rebellious and you wanted more freedom. Yeah, that's right.
Tosei:Did you drink alcohol for?
Nick:example Ah, of course, of course, okay, of course. And did you stay out late? Did you come?
Tosei:home late.
Nick:Yes, yes, yes. So you were like a bad boy sometimes.
Tosei:I don't think so. But yeah, Many people say to me bad boy, yeah.
Nick:But you were wanting to be free and you wanted to explore life. Yeah, interesting.
Tosei:So yeah. So why was it decided to live my life? It was strange.
Nick:So you were thinking why does my life have to be chosen by others and why do people accept this? Yes, yes, you wanted to choose your own way.
Tosei:Yeah, parents or society country everyone said go ahead and live like this.
Nick:That was frustrating, so parents, people and society was pushing you, or pushing everyone, to go this way? Yes, but you wanted to go another way. And did that anger you? Yes, that angered you, okay, but surprisingly you had a lawyer. But surprisingly, you got a lawyer's degree. So you completed a law degree, which I think is six years, but you never practiced law, you never became a lawyer. What did you learn from studying law?
Tosei:What did you learn from studying law? Very complicated. So I want to say in Japanese the law is always vague and the good and bad things are always vague, and the law is always late because it's always slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow, it's slow. Of course, there are cases where it is not enough and the law is made up of the opinions of many people living in that society. 多数決のようなことで決まるっていうことですね。 ただしその多数決は何によって、 その社会の人々の意見がどうやって決まるかっていうと、 メディアによって決まってるんですね。 その当時の日本では。. ですから当時の日本は、 例えばテレビで言われていること、 In Japan, the news was broadcast on TV and now it's on the internet. I think the media has a lot of power. I think humans think about everything with the information they input while they are alive. I learned that the media has a very strong power and I don't think that law was always right.
Nick:Okay, that's quite a bit, but the strong points were law is influenced by societal opinion and societal opinion is strongly influenced by media.
Nick:Yes, which obviously is not always a good thing. So that's what you learned. You also learned that law is coming to existence after an event or after something goes wrong. Yes, after an event or after something goes wrong, yes, and sometimes what is right or what is wrong can be vague or hard to determine. Yeah, and I think you said a few other things, but that's yes. It is interesting. We grow up learning this is right, this is wrong, but that's determined or shaped by other people through media.
Tosei:The important thing is that the law has the power to take away people's lives. It takes away people's freedom and lives. We're all in this together, in the sense of a country Does it take away? 自由を奪うっていうのは取る そう、自由を奪う。 例えば捕まえてJUに入れるとか、死刑にするとか、 そういうことが可能になってしまうでしょ、法律があれば。. 恐ろしいことだと思いましたね。.
Nick:So law can, or the legal system can, take away people's freedom or even their life. So if they commit a crime they might go to jail, or if it's a serious crime, they get capital punishment.
Tosei:Yes, yes, but if it's written in the law, everyone accepts it. でも法律に書いてあったらみんなそれを受け入れるんですね。.
Nick:Everyone, or most people, accept these laws, but it sounds like you didn't なぜなら法律は同時に人は自由ですって言うんですよ。. So law is saying we make laws to give you freedom, but that's not always the case. Yes, there you go, but that's not always the case. Yes, there you go. So when you traveled, you traveled to about 20 countries. Yeah, how did traveling in all these different countries shape your perspective, your thoughts about life?
Tosei:Yeah, my common sense is not common sense. Joushiki wa joushiki denai. Everyone has a common sense, but very, very individual thing. Common sense is not common sense If someone have different culture, different language, different religion, but I don't know why. But so we can share the emotion. We can share the emotion and we can bring each other, we can give each other the how to say I understand.
Nick:I understand. I learned that I could do it. Different race, different religion, different beliefs people have compassion. Amoyari, people will help you when they see you need help, and so you learned even though there are many differences, different opinions, different common sense, people can create or give compassion, and that's a good thing.
Tosei:And Japanese common sense. I've been taught Japanese common sense, but that's my common sense. No-transcript. Everyone has a completely different common sense. Yeah, it's the same as the law Good thing and bad thing.
Nick:It changes completely depending on the place. So the idea of what is good or what is wrong differs from country, but also maybe even person. Some people have different opinions. That's right. You saw a connection to law and travelling experience.
Tosei:Yes.
Nick:That's interesting. Yeah, that's good. I guess when you travel you learn so much about life, other people and yourself. Yes, that's right, exactly. Then you got into traditional crafts dento, koke and you studied and practiced these crafts. Do you want to talk about that? What crafts did you study?
Tosei:Many, many kinds of stuff, for example ceramics, or Nishijin or Nishijin. Or is Kyoto's special weaving? Weaving, yeah, yeah, for kimono, for obi, yeah. Or lantern, japanese lantern, or Japanese lacquerware, urushi lacquerware, bamboo, crafts, bamboo crafts. It's craft, Kintsugi. Do you know?
Nick:Yeah.
Tosei:Yeah, repair by gold, gold lacquer. Yeah, yeah, gold lacquer.
Nick:I think you made tea caddies. Yes, yes, yes, yes, Shazitsu And-ami cooking utensils, yeah, also kana-ami.
Tosei:Every kind of reference class in Kyoto, wow.
Nick:How long did you do that? For Three years to four years, so you would have learned to use your hands, your mind, concentration yes, making these, yeah, I learned about that, about this, but I don't make about this.
Tosei:but I don't make, just I produce that. So I ask graphic people, what do you want to do? And I connect people and I organize this exhibition, or I bring him that new designer or, yeah, I did branding, そういうことやってました。 僕が作るんじゃないです。 作っている人に助けることをやってたんです。.
Nick:So you promoted these crafts to help artists?
Tosei:Yes, I understand 三年じゃ作るのもできないよ。 そうですね。 一個もできない。 一個でも。. Yeah, artists, I understand. San nen ja. Tsukuru no mo dekinai, yo Ikko mo dekinai.
Nick:Yeah, I was surprised. I was thinking, wow, that's a lot in three years. Okay, so you were promoting these artists and crafts, kokunai within Japan, or kaigai Kokunai.
Tosei:Within Japan? Yes, but I live in Japan, in Kyoto, in Kyoto, but sometimes I bring the crafts, bring to the abroad. Yeah, sometimes.
Nick:I see. So these crafts. When I think about them, I think of the word shokunin damashi, yeah. So did you see and experience shokunin damashi when you were helping these artists? Yes, did you see it in reality?
Tosei:Yes, その3年間か4年間は とっても自由に仕事させてもらってたんですね。 なので本当に朝起きてから 深夜0時過ぎるまで yes, I drank with the craftsmen for a long time. I was doing it for 24 hours on 365 days. It seems like a very short time 3 or 4 years and I was able to connect with all the craftsmen who were working hard in the same generation as me, and I'm still in a deep relationship with my family. I'm still in a deep relationship with my family. I'm still in a deep relationship with.
Nick:My family, spent those three or four years spending your whole life with the craftspeople, from morning to night. You would be by their side watching them work, but you'd also go out with them, eat with them, drink with them, and you were like family. So you were very close and you're about the same age yeah, same age.
Tosei:Mostly, but of course younger or older.
Nick:Older. So you experienced their life? Yeah, by spending time with them. Yeah, wow, wow. Did this connect you to working at a newspaper? Did this connect you to advertising? No, completely different. Completely different. How did you survive financially? How did you make money Now, at that time, when you were yeah?
Tosei:Yeah, I was in a company. The company is half A company, owned half Kyoto prefecture and Kyoto and half is Kyoto's. Many companies not not government. So yeah, so, and so the handman go say handman mean can be a key, or the sana me a key, or kai shanimo tk eru tkoto kato kyo tono kame ni. I didn't need to bring it back to the company. It was a company that I was doing it for Kyoto. It was a company that was made for that purpose. I didn't have to bring back the profits to that company.
Nick:So I should have done what the craftsmen really did. Ok, so you were sponsored or paid to help promote these craftspeople by a large, a large company where profit didn't matter. It was focused on just. We need to promote the craftspeople of Kyoto.
Tosei:So you received the income from Kyoto Prefecture? Yeah, I see, that's nice, I see.
Nick:That's nice. Let's also touch on the temple. You've spent your time, obviously, training to become a priest and where you worked as a priest, so that's Ryosokuni Temple, is that correct?
Tosei:Ryosokuin Temple, ryosokuni.
Nick:Temple. Is that correct, Ryosokuin?
Tosei:Temple Ryosokuin.
Nick:Temple, so would you like to tell us about that temple, ryosokuin?
Tosei:Mm. Ah, okay. So when I was I became a monk, first I get in monastery Keninji Monastery. There is a training temple, zen Dō, yes, sō Dō, we call Sō Dō. Sō is a priest or a monk, dō is a Bō yes, bō. Three is Bo. Yes, three years I was in there. So when I was in there I can not connect the outside Soto and concentrate to the training. We call it Shugyo. So every day, day, minimum five hours sit and the other time almost ten hours do mostly cleaning, greening, green yeah, green or farming, cooking, something like that. So, and I was in there for three years and then I joined the Ryosokuin temple, ryosokuin temple, ryosokuin temple, also in Kenrinji temple, yeah, so Ryosokuin is in Kenrinji temple. So Ken Ninja has 14 temples. Ken Ninja is a big temple, so one of that, ryosoku-in, is one of that.
Nick:So it's a sub-temple, sub-temple, it's a temple within a temple yes, and you did your training there three years.
Tosei:In Ryosokuin, ryosokuin, five years.
Nick:Five years, sorry Five years, and every day Zazen five hours. So seated meditation five hours? No, no, no.
Tosei:In monastery Keninji Monastery, no, no, in monastery Keninji Monastery for three years. Three years, yeah, three years, and after that five years Ryosoku-in-Tempo.
Nick:Oh so. I was at the Hachinenka. Yeah, eight years of training, okay, yes, and that was mainly cleaning.
Tosei:Yes, five hours of meditation.
Tosei:So yes, In the monastery every day, minimum five hours, maximum 15 or 20 hours in a day, isazen and clean up for three years and five years in Ryosokuin mainly. I do clean up also, but I do. I teach the people, for people, how to do Zen meditation mainly, and I sometimes I write kanji character Zen words for the people or something like that. Nice, yeah, okay, so, so, so Monastery is also one of the Keninji temple sub-temple Sub-temple. Yeah, yeah, yeah, juyon, there is 14 sub-temples in monastery also and Ryosokuin also Sub-temple of Kenrinji temple. Yeah.
Nick:It sounds like a big temple, it sounds like a big temple.
Tosei:Kenrinji is the most oldest Zen temple in Kyoto. Oldest temple in Kyoto yeah, 820 or 830 years old, wow, yeah.
Nick:Established. Do you feel the history? Do you feel the history? Do you feel the history?
Tosei:Yes, yes, of course, but in Japan, in Kyoto, especially in Kyoto, 800 years is not so old, not old 800.
Nick:Not so old, yeah, not only 800, that's all. Yeah. So the opportunity to become a Zen monk was quite random. Would you like to talk about that?
Tosei:so so I don't have any plans to become a monk, basically. But when I was promoting Japanese crafts, I used to have an exhibition for ceramics in Ryosoku-in. Ryosoku-in's monk asked me please produce the exhibition. So I did that and I finished the exhibition. So the monk asked me again why don't you be a monk? Why don't you be a Zen monk? He wanted to see me become monk, become Zen monk. I don't know why, I don't know why. But then I start to think I will be monk. What is that? But yeah, and I decided, I decided to be a monk.
Nick:That's an interesting story. Very simple, simple, yeah, and that priest or that monk was Ito Torio-san.
Tosei:Yes.
Nick:Yes, so what do you?
Tosei:think he saw in you.
Nick:Why? Why did he think you should become a priest? Yeah?
Tosei:I used to ask him why you asked me.
Nick:So he said just 直感 and 見た目, 私の見た目 見た目って how to say how you look, the way you look, maybe, the way you do things, the way you go about your life. The chokkan were like just a sudden thought yeah, so he had a sudden thought yeah. So he had a sudden thought, Shinaba-san should become a priest. Yeah. And then he told you you look like you could be a priest, so why don't you become a priest?
Tosei:Why don't you? Why I thought?
Nick:that and not really leading a healthy life, and so you think it's quite unusual or strange? He saw that in you, despite your lifestyle. Yes, yes.
Tosei:Very strange.
Nick:Do you drink now?
Tosei:Don't you drink? No, I don't drink much. I go if I'm called to 飲む飲まない. ほとんど飲んでないですね。 呼ばれれば行くけど、 その当時から比べたら100分の1ぐらいになってるんじゃないですか。 OK.
Nick:So you rarely drink, only when you're asked, but it's like once in a hundred now, compared to your past where you used to drink. My, my mom used to drink every night, yeah, but now rarely. So that's interesting. Your life really changed. Did you say yes quickly or did you need time to think about the decision?
Tosei:It didn't take that long. Maybe at that point in time it was already decided, but I needed time to think about how to make it happen. That was also a direct answer. I wanted to do this. Yes, yes. How to say it in English? Gōriteki Chotto shiraberu.
Nick:Gōriteki, gōriteki.
Tosei:Gō-u-ri-teki, gō-u-ri-teki, yes, ah chitto mata.
Nick:So you kind of knew instantly yeah, I will become a priest, but you had to take time. Gōriteki demashita, Hmm, Um 合理的出ました。 Logical, Rational, うん。.
Tosei:そう、自分の選択として、 伝統工芸を手伝ってたわけですね、僕は。. で、伝統工芸を手伝うっていうことは、 I was helping traditional craftsmen. And when I say helping traditional craftsmen, I mean people who buy traditional craftsmen, people who get them. They buy the things, but the philosophy and beauty that is embedded in the things beauty, sense of beauty. Of course, technology and techniques are the same. The techniques that have been made in a long history are the same. I buy all of those things because I want to keep them by my side.
Nick:The philosophy that is included in it is important Concept is the most important thing when I thought about it.
Tosei:the concept of Zen is the core of Japanese concepts. It's an important part. I may be saying too much about the core, but I thought that if I became a player and told everyone directly, I would be able to do that.
Nick:craftspeople sell their craft, their, their pottery, or their tea caddies or their lacquer. You are not just selling a product, you are selling their spirit or their essence in the work of their product, and I guess this is like a type of craftsman um, it's like their flow or or their emotion or their spirit going into the product, and I guess this is, um, this is very much a part of japanese culture and I, I think you saw, oh, that's your yakuhari, that's your role, your role to help this philosophy or this way, this Japanese way of craftsmanship, which goes into the art, and you saw a connection to Zen, with you helping craftspeople sell their work. So there's a deep philosophy behind this. Japanese essence is found in craft and there's a connection between Zen. And you saw this connection, yes, and so you thought, ah, I will become a priest. It's like you saw the bigger picture.
Tosei:Yeah, I want to have time to think myself, think the human beings, think about life, think about the world. So I don't know many about the training of Zen, but I know, for three years in the monastery, very, very long time to sit. So I don't know what is Zazen, I don't know what is Zen completely, but there is a time, very long time, and no connect with outside. Yeah, so I want to think, I want to do everything and no connect with outside. Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah. So I want to think, I want to do everything and I want to make sense about these things. What is life, what is me, what is human beings, what is the world? So it's a reason also.
Tosei:Okay it's a reason also okay.
Nick:So becoming a zen monk gave you this opportunity to deeply think on these questions of life. What is life, who am I? Why is the way, why is the world this way? And that's in isolation. So you really had no contact outside of the temple.
Tosei:No, contact is not not correct. Little contact, almost almost no contact, almost no contact. Yeah, I was bad boy, so I was. Of course I can go through outside. Really, come back.
Nick:Secret dream I see. Okay, that's interesting. So what was the training? Very hard, it sounds like it was very hard, very hard.
Tosei:Very hard. So there's a short time to sleep. Always we in the monastery, always we wake up 3.30 in the morning Wow, 3.30 in the morning in summertime, 4 o'clock in wintertime. And we got to bed at 1 o'clock Wow, first year. First year, and second year, we can go to bed, to go to bed 11 o'clock, 11 o'clock so, and there is no free time. No free time, no free time. So if I finish my job and if I have five minutes, I sleep two minutes, I sleep two minutes. That's about it. If you don't do that, your stamina won't last.
Nick:Why. Why is that the case? Why is there only a small amount of sleep? Is that part of the training? Is that to condition your mind? Yeah, I think that's part of sleep. Is that part of the training? Is that to condition?
Tosei:your mind? Yeah, I think so, but I often do it simply. I have a lot of work, okay.
Nick:So, really, you just have so much to do, you have no time for sleep. Well, let's talk about your life now. So Zazen is a big part of your daily life and you, you practice it, but you, you teach it. But what is Zazen and how long do you do it every day?
Tosei:now, oh, okay, now when I want to sit, I sit. I don't decide. And I think Zazen is a technique, very actual body technique, technique, very actual body technique, to To observe myself and observe surroundings, observe the world. Why observe? Because we want to know about this Myself, and we want to know about human beings. What is this, what is life and what is the world? We want to know how. Just observe, just observe the technique of observation. I think Zazen is.
Nick:So that's really interesting, and we talked about this last time. But in the West, zazen, or meditation, the idea is to clear your mind of thoughts and not think, but you told me the opposite is true. Yeah, zazen gives you time to observe, to contemplate and to exhaust the answers to the questions.
Tosei:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exhaust the answers to the questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So though, if you want to forget, you can forget, but if you cannot forget something, so so you should think about that. Finally the question exhausted, asking yourself again and again, and finally makes sense and you can release that. そうじゃなくて, 疑問があったらそれを徹底的に納得いくまで, 考え尽くして, 考え尽くした結果それはリリースできるっていう話ですね.
Nick:So the practice of Zazen is not to ignore the question or to push it away. The practice is to take in the question, have it in your mind and until you find the answer or are satisfied, yeah, you keep going. And then, once you find the answer, it's gone and then maybe the next question. Yes, so it gives you space. It gives you space to just focus. It gives your mind space to process all these questions or thoughts we put aside because we're so busy. We're busy every day. We have this thought, but ah, it's a good thing, I'll think about it later. So Zazen gives us that space to process all the chaos in our mind.
Tosei:Yeah, so, first of all, what am I doing now? What am I doing in my life? Why am I doing that? You should think about that first, everyone. まず自分が一体何を今しているのか、何をして生きているのか、なぜそれをしているのかっていうのをまず考えるべきですね、みんな。 どうして今こうやって生きているのか。 ほとんど選んでないんですよ、私もそうだけど。 その事実をちゃんと受け止めるべきですね、まずは。.
Nick:So it gives us the space to think about why am I here, what am I doing, why am I leading this life? Most of my life is being chosen for me by other people, so that's very important. We have that time to, yeah, get some clarity. Yeah.
Tosei:We cannot choose how to be born. Yeah, we cannot choose how to be born. Yeah, gender also, country, religion, timing, we cannot choose. We cannot choose our life. No, no, no how to be born. But we can choose how to live, how to think.
Nick:Amazing. Yes. So yes, we were never given the choice of how we were born, where we were born, our race, our gender, our culture, religion. But just sitting we have the opportunity to think about how do I want to live?
Tosei:Yeah, so most people, also me. So human being is very special. My life is very special. Life we want to think Precious. But why was I born? Because the egg in your fridge doesn't change. The grass in front of me is a grass, it's tamago egg. To kawaranai koe nani Me no mae ni haete iru kusa grass. Ippon no sono tane to kawaranai wake desu yo hontou wa. So that is life.
Nick:That's life.
Tosei:Yes, Sore o mitomeru no totemo kowai n desu.
Nick:I see so, looking at life from the perspective of. I see so looking at life from the perspective of. There's one blade of grass or the egg in the refrigerator. So looking at life this way can be scary, like, ah, life is precious, I have this life, but all around me is life. So do you think we are afraid to think and focus about life because we know it will end and we will die? Yeah, so, we should think about death until we are satisfied with our own answer about death. Is that what you're saying?
Tosei:Yes, yes, that's right, that's right Live death, yeah, そう。.
Nick:Yeah, so, yeah, okay, so make sense okay so we must understand that our life is no different from the blade of grass or the the egg, and that once we can process that, or understand that, only after that can we start to think about how to live.
Tosei:Yeah, that's a very free thing to do, because we're not bound by anything, we're not bound by our family history, we're not bound by human history, we're not bound by religion, we're not bound by law. We're not bound, we are.
Nick:Then, free Free from religion, free from politics, free from society, free from family history, free from human history. So it sounds like there is acceptance of reality and then we are free. It's like, is it kind of like Arugamama?
Tosei:Arugamama. That's right, Even if you don't realize it Like, like.
Nick:So you're saying we're actually free when we're born yeah, saying we're actually free when we're born, yeah, but we're not free in our mind and we, we, we create it. We create our own prison in our mind through our thinking yeah, by you, by your own by your own thoughts and your urges and desires and impulses.
Nick:Yeah, and so, arugamama, is this idea of as it is or this is reality? Yeah, I think it's. The biggest personal problem is we don't control our thinking. We respond, we react and we we don't stop just to think. And now it's. It's harder. Today. It's harder with, um, you know, with with technology and phones and so much stimuli, very hard to relax and think. So meditation, zazen and meditation is increasingly becoming popular and that is your new role, like your yakugari, this is your role is to teach. You do it online and in person, so do you enjoy this role of teaching?
Tosei:Yeah, I enjoy, I enjoy.
Nick:I enjoy, I would like to.
Tosei:It's a job that makes you free.
Nick:It's a job that makes you free, freeing people, freeing people from their, from the prisons of their mind. Yeah, yeah yeah, sanka Steiner, so I would love to participate, so I will try to do that, yeah, so let's talk about another aspect of your life which is really interesting, and I guess this is like a hobby or a practice for you, and it's kekka seki. I guess the translation is boundary stones. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, would you like to describe these stones and what are they used for?
Tosei:oh yeah, kekkai Seki. Basically put in Zen garden or tea house garden. It is a boundary. You cannot enter over this, over that or one more meaning one is boundary and one is you should stop here and look around, look around the guy. This here is a good viewpoint. Yeah, two things basically. Yeah, and so I always work in Zen garden when I was in monastery and Ryosokuin, so I can do many things about Japanese garden Tie the rope or cut woods or something. Now I make it, but my work is not for the garden. Of course you can put in the garden also, but what do you call it? Put in your thoughts. Put in your thoughts.
Nick:Put in your thoughts, yeah, so I should explain.
Tosei:So these are stones that you wrap or you tie up with hemp.
Nick:And so first you take hemp, strings of hemp, and then you weave them, yes, into a tight, almost like tight, rope, yes, yes, and then you tie the stone with the rope and it looks quite organically beautiful. Thank you, did you have one? I think you have one, okay, and so how long did that take you to wrap to make Two?
Tosei:hours to most of maybe, maybe.
Nick:About two hours, yeah, and that's quite a small one, yeah, so larger ones can take. What five hours?
Tosei:Yeah, so to make rope it takes time weaving the rope.
Nick:So yeah, you said it's like making something for your mind. So when you make it, do you reach the flow state, when you're weaving, and then you're in the flow state.
Tosei:Yeah, sometimes. So, like waving mufflers or waving status, do simple one thing we concentrate highly Highly, yes, almost, yeah, it's same.
Nick:Does that feel like a spiritual practice?
Tosei:Hmm, very simple, actual. Thing.
Nick:Shokunin work, shokunin work, yeah, yeah, and you sell these online.
Tosei:Not me. One gallery in Switzerland they sell this online Online, but maybe completely sold out. Yes, they maybe completely sold out.
Nick:Yes, they're always sold out. I checked. You make these regularly.
Tosei:Yes, every week これを欲しがっている人が いたときに 作ります。 だからスイスのギャラリーは スイスにたくさんこれを欲しがっている人がいるんですね。 ということです。.
Nick:Okay, so there are many people in Switzerland who like these stones and you make them to order. So when someone wants one, you make them.
Tosei:Yes. When someone wants one, you make them. Yes. Yes, 何でもないものとしては何でもないし機能も大してないわけです. だけどここにはコンセプトがあって, これを手に取る人はそのコンセプトを買っているんだと思います I understand.
Nick:So you're saying it's just a stone wrapped in rope, it has really no function, but people are buying. I guess the concept behind the stone, which is this idea of it's you said it has two functions. Really, one is to stop you to look around to notice the world, and it's also a boundary in gardens. But I guess people are buying. I guess they're buying shakunin, damashi. They're buying what you put into the stone through your craft. So they're buying craftsmanship, you think.
Tosei:I know craftsmanship. I think I know craftsmanship. You think I know craftsmanship. I think I know craftsmanship. So I am not craft people, because craft Craftsmen are people who have been training for decades. I can't call myself a craftsman, it's rude. I can't call myself a craftsman, it's rude. But what I'm putting in this stone is If it's in the garden, I'll stop and look around, even if you don't put it in the garden. When you see this, what is your life? Why am I living now?
Nick:I want you to stop and look around. So you're saying a few things respectfully, that you're not a craftsman, and becoming a craftsman takes decades of hard work, working hard every day and it would be rude to say I'm a craftsman. But you hope that when people buy these stones and they don't really put them in their garden, they're going to put it somewhere in their house. You hope when they see the stone, they stop and reflect what am I doing with my life, or what matters to me, or they kind of observe the world around them. That's what you hope they do when they see the stones.
Tosei:Yes, and that is same as do Zazen, yeah, zazen, okay.
Nick:So actually say sort of the important question is what is Zen? So outside of Japan, zen is very commercialized, yeah, and people say, oh, this phone is Zen design or I want a Zen room. So Zen has become like an adjective, like kaioshi, like oh, this cup is Zen, but what? How do you define Zen?
Tosei:Zen is a way of thinking. Way of thinking, yeah, how to see the people, how to see the life, how to see the world, way of thinking. Religion is a way of thinking. I think Zen is one philosophy of Japan, nice, and Zazen is a technique to install the philosophy Zen philosophy, the philosophy Zen philosophy.
Nick:Nice, all right, I think you know my podcast is about Ikigai, so do you think Ikigai is tied? To Zen, of course, good, okay, of course.
Tosei:Yeah, so ikigai. I think ikigai is that you make by yourself. You have to be convinced of how you live your life to choose a way to live a convinced life. So to be convinced of what you are doing. To decide how you live your life, you need to observe reality first.
Nick:So ikigai is something you create or make for yourself, I guess, through life, experience and decisions, and it's also something you must satisfy. Yes, it's something you must explore and satisfy for your life to move forward, for you to live life fully. So ikanji, ikanji, okay, and for example, can you have many ikigai. So maybe is making kekaiseki one ikigai for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tosei:Yeah, yeah, and introduce Zazen. It's also. Spend time with family also, his friends also, and do something drinking with craftsmen, yeah, yeah also. Yeah, exactly, and trip all over the world also and meet someone, I don't know, someone. Meet unknown people also. Yeah, and yes, yes.
Nick:So it can be everywhere. We have many things, so it can be everywhere, many things. Well, on the subject of learning Zazen, where can people learn Zazen from you?
Tosei:Kyoto, first in Kyoto, so Kyoto. I have many place to do Zazen session and one is online, online. Online, so I have online session and but now I have classes in online, but only Japanese now, but I can, I have a personal session also. So if you want to do that, I can do that. So online personal session, but my english ability is very, very poor. Like this right オンラインで座る, 細かい哲学的な 質問とか 抽象的な質問とか テキストでやり取りするとかね, そういうこともできると思う, alright.
Nick:So people can go to Kyoto and learn from you. You also do it online. People can do it 個人的に, one man to man, one on one online and can do it uh called jinteki, so one man to man, one, one-on-one online and even through text, where you offer philosophical questions to contemplate yeah, and of course, if, if someone invites me so I can go there.
Nick:Okay, yeah, well maybe I could invite you to do a Zazen online for my community, oh, if it's okay. Yeah, yeah, we can talk about that later, okay, community, if it's okay. Yeah, yeah, we can talk about that later, okay. So I have one more question before we finish. So what is zen kotoba?
Tosei:yoko aru desu ne ichigo ichie toka.
Nick:What is one zen word or Zen saying you would like to teach the listeners?
Tosei:Oh, there is many, many Zen words I like. Okay, one very short word is Nikon or Jikon. It's meaning just now now. So there is no past, there is no future past thing and the future thing is just in your head, just in your soul. There is, there's only now.
Nick:There's no. The past is the past. The future can only be experienced now.
Tosei:So there's only now, うん。 ですね。 ですね。 今は今。 今しか。 そうそうそう。 過去も未来も存在しない。 それは頭の中、想像の中だけのもので、 あるのは、現実にあるのは今だけ。 うん。, うん。, yes。 なので、あのー、.
Nick:There's only now. There's no reason to be trapped in the past. There's no reason to fear the future. You have now, and that's this is the way to live your life is to focus on the now, because the past and the future are concepts of the mind yes, that's right, nikon. Nikon. Now I like it. Thank you, Thank you. So. Thank you so much, Tosei Shinabe-san Oshio-sama, for your time today, you too.
Tosei:Thank you too.
Nick:Really enjoyed it and, yes, I'd love to come and visit you in Kyoto.
Tosei:Yeah, okay, thank you very much.